From: David Buchanan (DBuchanan@ClassicalRadio.org)
Date: Sat Nov 09 2002 - 16:56:21 GMT
Sam said:
In Ch3 (p35 of my copy) Phaedrus is considering the 'vision quest' and the
peyote experience and copies in a reference, which concludes:
"The experience is determined by the person's mental state, the structure of
his or her personality, the physical setting, and cultural influences."
dmb says:
Right. The first experimenters with LSD discovered this right away. They
referred to personality and mental state as the "set" and the actual
location as the "setting". It became clear very quickly that having the
right set and setting went a long way toward preventing "bad trips". The
highly respected theologian Huston Smith describes this in CLEANSING THE
DOORS OF PERCEPTION: The Religious Significance of Entheogenic Plants and
Chemicals. (Entheogenic means something like "god-enabling".)
Sam said:
I would say that my understanding of tradition focusses on structuring of a
personality and (obviously) the cultural influences. In addition, I would
say that the tradition is - by and large - determinative of whether the
experience has Quality (ie the difference between delusion and genuine
insight). That comment lends itself to misunderstanding. I'm not saying that
the tradition has the final say, more that the insight needs to be accepted
as an insight by other people before it can be seen as having Quality (I
suspect that's a tautology: people need to see it has Quality before they
can see it has Quality (!). Not sure whether that's a suffocating or
liberating tautology. Hmmm). Jesus, for example, was clearly rejected by the
'tradition' he was embedded in, but elements of that tradition (the
disciples) recognised his Quality, and developed a variant 'tradition' to
static latch the Quality he embodied. If Jesus had not been recognised as
having Quality, and if that recognition had not been incorporated within a
communal tradition preserving the insight, he would have been forgotten
after his death.
dmb says:
I think you're bringing in the issue of social evolution here, which is
another topic altogether. This places a nearly impossible standard upon the
mystical experience. But, as Huston Smith insists repeatedly, the trick is
to make the experience effect some real and permanent change in one's self.
This is quite enough, I think. Its first and foremost about discovering
one's own true identity and divinity. But to expect it to create an
evolutionary leap in the culture or generate a group of disciples puts the
bar too high and is really a different kind of thing. Sure, Dynamic change
is common to both and one person's transformation can lead to profound
changes in the larger culture, but one is personal and is necessarily
fleeting while the other takes time, political struggle, sometimes war and
all kinds of practical work. You're not exactly comparing apples and
oranges, its more like apples and orchards.
Sam said:
You referred to mystical experiences being 'noetic' - would you accept that
your position is 'Jamesian' in the sense described? If not, why not? (I'm
not wanting to put you into a box, I genuinely want to know how you
understand your position).
dmb says:
James' description is basic and I have no problem with it, but there's a
long-lost history and many good writers since James too. If you want a name
for my position on mysticism, you can call it "fascinated enthusiasm".
Remind me to tell you about Santa Claus and the shamanic tradition. Orpheus
is connected to this realm in a big way too. Blake, Huxley, Morrision. The
list goes on and on.
Sam said:
With regard to MacIntyre, Horse gives a very good introduction towards the
end of Lila's Child, ...
dmb says:
You got me there. I don't yet have a copy of Lila's Child and I'm not
familiar with MacIntyre.
Thanks.
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