From: Wim Nusselder (wim.nusselder@antenna.nl)
Date: Sun Nov 10 2002 - 21:39:52 GMT
Dear Peter,
You 10/11 12:39 -0500 again seem to be making a point of not answering what
I wrote ('National identity is of dubious quality these days anyway. Don't
you agree?') and answering what I didn't write. I didn't express having
taken offence, did I? And you are still dodging the reason for your rather
ridiculous suspicion (9/11 8:26 -0500) that Steve would be Bo in disguise.
You do have a lot of value to say for me:
You wrote 19/10 6:03 -0400:
'self is a tool used by something far wider and dynamic than one individual'
and 19/10 7:10 -0400:
'the individual is a story culture invents in order to promote culture, or
social patterns of value, itself'
and 22/10 9:41 -0400:
'I feel individuals are constructions to a large degree and they don't have
discrete boundaries; ... However, people may be viewed as evolved patterns
of values, and to this extent the individual begins to disappear. An
individual becomes a whirl in the flowing stream of evolution; corresponding
with patterns of beauty in the All, but not isolated and observing that
which is other than its own transitory structure.'
and 24/10 15:10 -0400:
'intellectual patterns don't require celebrity status' [I take this to mean
'individuals'] 'to survive - they can lay dormant for hundreds of years
before continuing to evolve'
[But do they need individuals to evolve again?!]
and 25/10 5:34 -0400:
'the vehicle [of intellectual evolution] ... is a mirage - it is a static
representation of a living narrative
...
the MoQ is a poem waiting to be sung and not an argument'
and 25/10 10:58 -0400:
'"I" is not immediate enough for it to be a thing and you [Sam] agree that
"I" is a narrative, so does that mean there is no "I" really but it does
have an organizing social function when believed to exist?'
and 28/10 18:12 -0500:
'the manipulation of symbols does not have to follow daft rational rules'
and 29/10 20:39 -0500:
'Personal experience getting in the way here. I prefer books and music to
people infected with western cultural values.' adding 1/11 10:58 -0500:
'Material[ism?] and media [domination?] mostly.'
and 5/11 11:46 -0500:
'The people flourishing in the two towers were flourishing at the expense of
less fortunate individuals.
...
One can be at the very bottom of the social pile and yet be intellectually
and morally superior to those within the rich confines of an air conditioned
nightmare.'
and 6/11 9:44 -0500:
'Systematic organization of social patterns is an intellectual imposition.
...
This points to something larger than the individual'
and 8/11 10:46 -0500:
'You are what you value'
I sympathize with all and agree with a lot of this. I expressed some of it
in the poem I quoted before:
__________________________________________
GENESIS 3
'I' is just some other people's quotes,
a bundle of memories, cravings and hopes.
I am connected, one with all that lives and prospers.
'I' seeks status, seeks to contact and to impress.
Impression becomes fear, opposition, repels.
'I' becomes who I am, always as ever.
'I' versus I.
I contain 'I'.
'I' is a wave, whipped up by the wind,
a wave of craving to be more than I am.
I am the sea, an ocean of love.
I receive what streams back, what returns to its source.
__________________________________________
What misses for me from what you write is the story, the living narrative,
that -as you wrote- has 'an organizing social function', also in discussing
on this list. You seem to be dodging 'individuality for yourself, making it
difficult to discuss with you. Are you disguising your self (= your story)
to prevent 'the system' from 'find[ing] you and incorporat[ing] you'?
Individuality may be a social pattern of values, but it is an essential
basis for intellectual patterns of values, even for those that don't conform
to 'daft rational rules'. There is a larger I we can identify with than the
'I' that can be bound by the system to 'daft rational rules'. 'Something
larger than the individual' too. 'Something' which is NOT 'uneasy and
disturbing', but whole and healing. The ocean rather than the waves, DQ
rather than sq.
With friendly greetings,
Wim
----- Oorspronkelijk bericht -----
Van: Peterfabriani@aol.com
Aan: moq_discuss@moq.org
Verzonden: zondag 10 november 2002 18:39
Onderwerp: Re: MD levels (Down with Types of Patterns, Up with Types of
Value)
In a message dated 11/10/02 4:20:05 PM GMT Standard Time,
wim.nusselder@antenna.nl writes:
Dear Peter,
You wrote 9/11 19:40 -0500:
'I am sorry to hear you are Dutch, but we all have our crosses to bear?'
A sorrow shared is a sorrow halved; I'm lucky to have fellow Dutch on this
list.
Americans must feel even luckier, bearing their burden with so many others
here.
National identity is of dubious quality these days anyway. Don't you agree?
Confessing evil is the best way to get help correcting it.
With friendly greetings,
Wim
Dear Wim,
I did not wish to offend, i feel my national sense of humour may appear
rude?
Actually, i love the Dutch - their art, music, great modern jazz; one of my
favourite guitarists is the incredible Jan Akkerman, who i was lucky enough
to hear play Nov. 5th bonfire night. I feel your culture is very often more
forward looking and civilised than my own. In other words, high Quality.
Peter.
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