Re: MD the metaphysics of free-enterprise

From: David Morey (us@divadeus.freeserve.co.uk)
Date: Fri Aug 06 2004 - 23:16:01 BST

  • Next message: David Morey: "Re: MD DQ & emergence & consciouness"

    Johnny

    Discovery is an SOM loaded term.
    But you are being an idealist. The quality
    of the idea that hydrogen and oxygen existed before
    water is in time high quality vs the also correct
    statement that human knowledge encountered the concept of water before
    that of hydrogen and oxygen. But I have no time for idealist crap
    that pretends we cannot tell a clearly plausible story about the
    ontological evolution of being where hydrogen is in the story before
    water. Without the evolving levels MOQ becomes idealism and that
    seems to be your regression of it. But idealism is preferable to materialism
    and it is easy to fall into it when defending ourselves against materialism
    & SOM.

    regards
    David M
    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "johnny moral" <johnnymoral@hotmail.com>
    To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
    Sent: Thursday, August 05, 2004 8:41 PM
    Subject: Re: MD the metaphysics of free-enterprise

    > Hi David,
    >
    > >Johnny:No "individual" hydrogen and oxygen atoms invented
    > >water (though some must have been 'first'),
    > >
    > >
    > >DM: Well. I suggest that DQ did event water as an emergent event
    > >in the context of hydrogen and atom laying down a new SQ
    > >pattern. As DQ emerges in new ways in the context of all
    > >the SQ patterns that make up the collective we might decide
    > >to call an individual.
    >
    > Exactly, just as DQ invented water, and not the "fully emerged individual"
    > atoms which first bonded together, DQ invented the airplane and not the
    > "fully emerged individual" people. You and Platt were giving a little too
    > much ideologically motivated credit to the Randian "individuals". They do
    > deserve credit for being the creative geniuses they arer, but Morality
    > deserves credit for them being creative geniuses.
    >
    > I believe that water existed before hydrogen and oxygen, and that they
    were
    > created only when people decided to look to see what water was made of.
    > Prior to that, "air" existed, but not hydrogen and oxygen. Of course,
    once
    > they were created, they had to be projected back into history and the
    > creation was turned into a discovery. But it was a creation, not a
    > discovery. It is only believed to be a discovery in SOM reality.
    >
    > Johnny
    >
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