From: Scott Roberts (jse885@earthlink.net)
Date: Thu Aug 12 2004 - 18:07:03 BST
Ham,
Some comments and a question.
Pirsig uses the term 'Quality' as a result of an English department
colleague asking him if he was teaching Quality to his English composition
students (the incident is described in ZAMM).
To say that Pirsig is less metaphysical due to his interspersing
semi-autobiography within his books rather than being systematic is
ridiculous. Is Plato (or Berkeley or Hume) to be downgraded because he uses
dialogue? Plotinus because he didn't write a Summa? Nietzche for relying on
aphorisms? You don't have to divine Pirsig's metaphysics by "reading
between the lines". His story parts are well-separated from his philosophy
parts. The irony is that his method is easy to read and understand, while
yours is needlessly difficult (do you really need the neologisms P-Essent
and B-Essent if they are "analogous" to subject and object"?).
A minor point: The Pseudo-Dionysius would seem to me to take the honor of
first, or at least earlier than Eckhart, theologian to speak of what is
beyond being and existence.
From my Inner Stickler: Whence the circumflex over the 'e' in 'Sartre'? I
checked some French web sites with lots of diacriticals, and none have it
on 'Sartre'. Also, if you're going to mark the 'a' in 'a priori', it should
be a bar, to signify the long Latin vowel, not an acute, though it's
probably better to leave it alone.
The question: Do you consider the Patriot Act to be a help or a hindrance
to freedom?
- Scott
> [Original Message]
> From: <hampday@earthlink.net>
> To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
> Date: 8/12/2004 12:19:13 AM
> Subject: MD RE: Proposal to discuss a Metaphysics of Value
>
> From Ham Priday, Wednesday, August 12, 2004, 12:15 AM
> Subject: Re: MD Proposal to discuss a Metaphysics of Value
>
> > msh says:
> > I can't speak for Dan, who speaks well enough for himself as you will
> > discover, but I do have a few more questions of my own. Even though I
> > get the sense you are not interested in answering very precise
> > questions, since you've ignored several already, I'll try again:
> >
> > 1) Will you please explain how it is that your thesis is metaphysical
> > while Pirsig's is sociological?
>
> You and Dan must be the "attack dogs" in this group. If only you two
> could be as devoted to an earnest exploration of Philosophy!
>
> I'm not saying that Pirsig doesn't have a metaphysics -- that's obvious by
> its MOQ apellation. But it should also be obvious that the metaphysical
> foundation for my philosophy of Essence is clearly laid out in the thesis.
> Surely one can't be expected to fully comprehend a philosophy by
> reading between the lines of a semi-autobiographical novel. "An inquiry
> into morals"? -- perhaps; but, apart from the "SODV" paper, where has
> your celebrated author postulated his metaphysics as a formal thesis?
>
> > 1) What is it about "Essentialism" that you consider to be a unique
> > contribution to Philosophy? I've read your thesis and see nothing
> > original. However, I'm often wrong, so, please point me in the right
> > direction.
>
> I think the immanency concept is unique in that it makes Essence
> accessible to man (as Value). Pirsig has chosen Quality to designate
> this conjunction, for reasons that I don't yet understand, while making it
> clear that these terms are are equivalent. The notion of a subjective
> essence probably originated with Plotinus, but Aristotle and his followers
> had posited "essence" as specific "entity types" in an objective reality,
> which is where the positivists still search for it today..
>
> > 2) Am I wrong in thinking that your personal values are derived from
> > your philosophy? If not, please provide me with a line of reasoning
> > that concludes with the idea that the world will experience a quality
> > latch-up if George Bush is able to pirate another four years in
> > office.
>
> It's more likely the other way around, although I've never given it much
> thought. Because I value individual Freedom and want our society to
> preserve it, I tend to be "conservative", though I really don't care for
> labels.
> I do worry that the perception of Government as a continuous source of
> "entitlements" and a means of redistributing the nation's wealth in
> accordance
> with the pseudo-morality of "political correctness" is undermining our
> freedoms
> and lowering our standards in the international community. (Ayn Rand had
> a lot to say about the affect of such trends on free enterprise, as did
> economist Milton Friedman.) Since visitors to my site say they want Value
> and Freedom illustrated in a societal context, this election year seemed a
> propitious time to add a commentary page. I have no "political agenda",
but
> the idea that George Bush "pirated" the 2000 election is simply ludicrous.
>
> > 3) You say you have read "most of ZMM." I would be interested to
> > know at which point you decided you had read enough. In answering
> > this question, it might be prudent to consider that you are talking
> > to people who have probably read the book all the way through, maybe
> > even more than once.
>
> I had looked at ZMM back in the '70s, but was skeptical that a book about
> motorcycles could have anything serious to offer on philosophy. I managed
> to read about half of it last year before having to return it to the
> library. (If it will make you feel any better, I purchased LILA in
> paperback and found it a much better read.)
>
> Do I get a passing grade for these answers, Mark?
>
> Best regards,
> Ham
>
>
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