From: David Morey (us@divadeus.freeserve.co.uk)
Date: Thu Aug 12 2004 - 22:13:40 BST
----- Original Message -----
From: "johnny moral" <johnnymoral@hotmail.com>
To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2004 6:50 PM
Subject: Re: [Spam] Re: MD the metaphysics of free enterprise
> Hi Platt
>
> >I'm glad I don't have to depend on public records (which can be forged)
or
> >my mother, doctor, etc. (all dead) for my existence.
>
> You do have to depend on your mother for your existence, you self-centered
> freak! You have to depend on someone noticing you, at least once, to
exist.
> Or, perhaps, deducing your existence from other evidence. I maintain
that
> if there was no evidence for a person's existence, if no woman ever
> experienced giving birth to a postulated person and no one ever noticed a
> person, then that person does not exist. You seem to be implying that
> people can just materialize into existence, like I can suddenly have a 30
> year old younger brother even though no such person ever existed before.
I
> think my mother would know if there was such a person out there.
>
> > > Besides, you are a consciousness, part of the human consciousness that
> > > creates everything, so while you are alone you are still creating the
> >world
> > > and being created by patterns of morality.
> >
> >In other words, there's I who creates me? Who is this I? If I identify
> >this I, who is doing the identifying? Another I? How many "I's" must I
> >postulate.
>
> OK, no, the patterns are always what is creating you and at the same time
> they are using the locus of consciousness they create ("you") to continue
> their own existence by having you expect them into the future. You would
> not be born into consciousness but for other "I"s expecting you to be a
> consciousness. The other "I"'s are not you, they are me and the rest of
us,
> living, dead, and not yet born - in other words, all of Morality expects a
> new baby to be conscious, to be one of us. Morality creates new people,
new
> locii of consciousness.
>
> > > David M wrote:
> > > >How about from the other side. Take sensory deprivation,
> > > >it seems to destroy the experience of an SOM type.
> > > >Does this seems to have important implications about
> > > >the relationship between being and sense?
> > >
> > > Sense just senses for a small sample of time, and the world in between
> > > those senses is filled in by our minds according to our beliefs.
Thus,
> > > while we are asleep or in a sensory deprivation tank, our minds
believe
> > > that things contnue to exist.
> >
> >How can you possibly know that minds believe that things continue to
exist
> >when we're asleep?
>
> I mean we believe the world continues to exist while we sleep. I don't
know
> what we are thinking as we sleep, we just believe, while awake, that the
> world will continue to exist "out there", independently of our thinking of
> it, while we sleep. It is a high quality belief, perhaps the highest (and
> it is called SOM).
>
> > > I'm surprised this idea, that existence and being come from experience
> >and
> > > don't actually exist "out there", meet resistance? How can one
accept
> > > Lila without agreeig with this?
> >
> >I'm surprised you don't see that experience must necessarily exist before
> >existence and being can "come from experience."
>
> Expectation (Morality) preceeds existence, and experience is simultaneous
> with existence of subject and object. Once subject/object experience
> happens, that experience becomes expectation that both subject and object
> will be repeated.
>
> >You have accounted for
> >the existence of the cart (existence and being) but ignored the existence
> >and being of the horse.
>
> The horse and cart are Morality. Are you saying the horse is DQ, by any
> chance? Maybe there's a large horn on its head, too?
>
> >Your argument appears circular: experience that
> >creates existence is by existence created.
>
> Correct, it is circular, like Yin-Yang, Being-ahead-of-itself, etc. If
you
> are wondering where the circle started, back at the beginning of time,
there
> is much agreement about this - it started with the Word, Morality,
> Expectation, Undifferentiated Quality. This was at the beginning, when
time
> began, with the first experience of Quality. (I say this was about 10,000
> years ago, and the 15 Billion years before that was created quite recently
> in order to make our world make sense, to make our highest quality beliefs
> consistent and keep Morality going)
>
> Platt, I think you are tilting at windmills here, why are you arguing with
> me? You know that the MoQ says that SOM is merely a very high quality
idea,
> right? (Not "merely", but awesomely, gloriously and essentially) You
> aren't wrong to call SOM true and say that we are "really" here, but this
is
> a philosophy forum! About the MoQ! Philosophically, there is nothing
"out
> there", we are not existing subjects and objects, existence depends on
> concsiousness, belief, expectation, faith, and Morality. You are trying
to
> assert SOM comes first! Makes me think you are just using the bits of the
> MoQ you like as some sort of Ayn Randian prop to promote individualism and
> elitism, but you don't really want to understand it philosophically.
>
> Johnny
>
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