RE: MD Plotinus, Pirsig and Wilber

From: Paul Turner (paul@turnerbc.co.uk)
Date: Fri Aug 20 2004 - 10:26:41 BST

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    Hi Scott

    Scott said:
    Barfield, on the other hand does the job right (and as I've said many
    times, Barfield does all these things that I am criticizing the MOQ for
    not doing).

    Paul:
    On the other hand, as I recall Barfield from "Saving the Appearances,"
    he doesn't provide a metaphysics. He uses "the unrepresented" to
    designate that part of reality which he doesn't want to explain
    (although, interestingly, he sometimes refers to is as "particles") but
    has to assume is there and is independent of the mind. He also assumes
    that the mind is already there, waiting to convert these particles into
    representations.

    Scott said:
    The melody, or the note, exists ab initio as a whole (which implies
    partness, and being part of a greater whole), and the best analogy for
    this sort of thing in our experience is the idea.

    Paul:
    Is it?

    Scott said:
    So to call its pre-perceived state "pre-intellectual" or
    "undifferentiated" is a mistake.

    Paul:
    Only if you think, as you do, that ideas are fundamental reality.

    Scott said:
    It is only that because we can't picture a non-spatio-temporal holon (to
    use Wilber's term) that leads us to assign these epithets, a fallacy
    deriving from what Coleridge calls "the despotism of the eye".
    Perception, then, turns the idea into an object of space, time, and
    mass, which is the same kind of thing as our turning our ideas into
    speech. This is how mind and matter can be discursively unified (felt
    unity is another matter, requiring Reason rather than understanding).
    Matter is the speech of the intellect of the other, mind is what I turn
    into speech for others.

    Paul:
    What is "the intellect of the other?"

    Regards

    Paul

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