From: Joseph Maurer (jhmau@sbcglobal.net)
Date: Sun Aug 22 2004 - 19:21:40 BST
On 20 August 2004 342:Pm Ian writes to Mark:
Mark,
You say "logic might and sometimes does produce better results."
I say therefore, not because of the logic, but in spite of the logic. Not
actually connected with the logic in any causal way.
Doxastic. Just wishful thinking. A desire to believe in logic. A refusal to
believe real (human) world outcomes are emergent from much more mysterious
(complex that is, not mystic) relationships than classical "scientific"
logic. (And highly politically incorrect for me suggest logic is just
wishful thinking, or that science is just political correctness.)
Hi Ian, Mark and all,
joe: IMO mystic is not subjective. 'Mysterious' is as much a label as
'mystic' and probably from the same root 'mystes' initiate. Hopefully, a
friendly reminder! "Complex" is rather mixed-up.
Joe Maurer
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ian Glendinning" <ian@psybertron.org>
To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
Sent: Friday, August 20, 2004 2:23 PM
Subject: Re: MD Fox News and Logical Analysis
> Mark,
>
> You say "logic might and sometimes does produce better results."
>
> I say therefore, not because of the logic, but in spite of the logic. Not
> actually connected with the logic in any causal way.
>
> Doxastic. Just wishful thinking. A desire to believe in logic. A refusal
to
> believe real (human) world outcomes are emergent from much more mysterious
> (complex that is, not mystic) relationships than classical "scientific"
> logic. (And highly politically incorrect for me suggest logic is just
> wishful thinking, or that science is just political correctness.)
>
> What I'm amazed by, given that this is an MOQ discussion board that so
many
> people defend the SOM logic.
>
> Ian Glendinning
>
>
>
> From: "Mark Steven Heyman" <markheyman@infoproconsulting.com>
> To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2004 5:44 AM
> Subject: MD Fox News and Logical Analysis
>
>
> > Hi Ian, and all,
> >
> > msh said:
> > People use logical argument all the time in
> > their attempts to persuade, or to justify their actions. Bush and
> > Major [sic] and company offered at least 4 different arguments for
> > the invasion of Iraq, one after the other as each preceding argument
> > was proved fallacious. I think, using logical and evidentiary
> > analysis, the persuasiveness of an argument can be reduced to
> > near 0. Which in some circumstance might save lives.
> >
> > Ian replied ...
> > I don't understand Mark, unless you're being ironic.
> > Of course people continue to use logic to justify their actions,
> > both for and against war in your example, and yes (in theory) they
> > can reduce the argument to 0 (or equally 100%).
> > But look where it gets us - bad deciscions.
> > Logic is a triumph of wishful-thinking over reality.
> > Which brings me back to the political correctness thread.
> >
> > msh says:
> > Well, I guess I'm being ironic in the sense that I'm assuming that
> > the commercial media will provide equal coverage to all sides of an
> > argument, and that policy-makers in a putative democracy will be
> > influenced by the opinion of the majority. Since this in no way
> > resembles the world in which we live, yes, irony reigns supreme.
> >
> > However, for fun, let's assume my two preposterous premises. In the
> > case
> > of the most recent attack on Iraq, here's what would have happened
> > (Ian,
> > substitute the British equivalents):
> >
> > 1) People like Scott Ritter, Dennis Halliday, Hans von Sponeck,
> > Michael Parenti, Howard Zinn, Noam Chomsky, Robert Fisk, Robert
> > Parry, Alexander Cockburn would have received as much air and print
> > exposure as people like Rush Limbaugh, Bill O'Reilly, Hannity and
> > Whats-his name, Dan Rather, Ted Koppel, Peter Jennings, Jim Leher,
> > Gordon Liddy, Oliver North, Colin Powell, Donald Rumsfeld, Connie
> > Rice, Cheney and Bush.
> >
> > 2) Had this happened, the people of the US and Britain would have
> > had more than enough information to recognize the bullshit evidence
> > and bad logic advanced by their leaders for the purpose of justifying
> > a
> > murderous attack on a harmless and defenseless nation as the only way
> > of
> > removing a vicious tyrant who, only a few years before, still vicious
> > and
> > tyrannical, had been the darling of the same Western Powers who now
> > sought
> > his destruction.
> >
> > 3) Armed with this information, the people of the US and GB, (again,
> > in
> > my hypothetical world where governments are not owned by business and
> > therefore respond to the will of the of the people) might very well
> > have
> > prevented the slaughter of thousands upon thousands of human beings
> > who
> > were no threat to anyone and had less to do with the 9-11 attacks
> > than any
> > tax-paying American (or Briton) who cheered or, worse, remained
> > silent.
> >
> > Ian, this is how logic and evidentiary analysis might, and sometimes
> > does, save lives.
> >
> > O Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood...
> >
> > Best,
> > Mark (msh)
> > --
> > InfoPro Consulting - The Professional Information Processors
> > Custom Software Solutions for Windows, PDAs, and the Web Since 1983
> > Web Site: http://www.infoproconsulting.com
> >
> > "Thought is only a flash between two long nights, but this flash is
> > everything." -- Henri Poincare'
> >
> > --
> > InfoPro Consulting - The Professional Information Processors
> > Custom Software Solutions for Windows, PDAs, and the Web Since 1983
> > Web Site: http://www.infoproconsulting.com
> >
> > "Thought is only a flash between two long nights, but this flash is
> > everything." -- Henri Poincare'
> >
> >
> >
> > Mark Steven Heyman (msh)
> > --
> > InfoPro Consulting - The Professional Information Processors
> > Custom Software Solutions for Windows, PDAs, and the Web Since 1983
> > Web Site: http://www.infoproconsulting.com
> >
> >
> > "Thought is only a flash between two long nights, but this flash is
> > everything." -- Henri Poincare'
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > MOQ.ORG - http://www.moq.org
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