From: Ian Glendinning (ian@psybertron.org)
Date: Sun Aug 22 2004 - 23:50:15 BST
Joe, I wasn't defining mysterious (or mystic) just explaining the sense in
which I was using it.
Like most words they've come a long way from their roots.
Ian
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joseph Maurer" <jhmau@sbcglobal.net>
To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
Sent: Sunday, August 22, 2004 7:21 PM
Subject: Re: MD Fox News and Logical Analysis
> On 20 August 2004 342:Pm Ian writes to Mark:
>
> Mark,
>
> You say "logic might and sometimes does produce better results."
>
> I say therefore, not because of the logic, but in spite of the logic. Not
> actually connected with the logic in any causal way.
>
> Doxastic. Just wishful thinking. A desire to believe in logic. A refusal
to
> believe real (human) world outcomes are emergent from much more mysterious
> (complex that is, not mystic) relationships than classical "scientific"
> logic. (And highly politically incorrect for me suggest logic is just
> wishful thinking, or that science is just political correctness.)
>
>
> Hi Ian, Mark and all,
>
> joe: IMO mystic is not subjective. 'Mysterious' is as much a label as
> 'mystic' and probably from the same root 'mystes' initiate. Hopefully, a
> friendly reminder! "Complex" is rather mixed-up.
>
> Joe Maurer
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ian Glendinning" <ian@psybertron.org>
> To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
> Sent: Friday, August 20, 2004 2:23 PM
> Subject: Re: MD Fox News and Logical Analysis
>
>
> > Mark,
> >
> > You say "logic might and sometimes does produce better results."
> >
> > I say therefore, not because of the logic, but in spite of the logic.
Not
> > actually connected with the logic in any causal way.
> >
> > Doxastic. Just wishful thinking. A desire to believe in logic. A refusal
> to
> > believe real (human) world outcomes are emergent from much more
mysterious
> > (complex that is, not mystic) relationships than classical "scientific"
> > logic. (And highly politically incorrect for me suggest logic is just
> > wishful thinking, or that science is just political correctness.)
> >
> > What I'm amazed by, given that this is an MOQ discussion board that so
> many
> > people defend the SOM logic.
> >
> > Ian Glendinning
> >
> >
> >
> > From: "Mark Steven Heyman" <markheyman@infoproconsulting.com>
> > To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
> > Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2004 5:44 AM
> > Subject: MD Fox News and Logical Analysis
> >
> >
> > > Hi Ian, and all,
> > >
> > > msh said:
> > > People use logical argument all the time in
> > > their attempts to persuade, or to justify their actions. Bush and
> > > Major [sic] and company offered at least 4 different arguments for
> > > the invasion of Iraq, one after the other as each preceding argument
> > > was proved fallacious. I think, using logical and evidentiary
> > > analysis, the persuasiveness of an argument can be reduced to
> > > near 0. Which in some circumstance might save lives.
> > >
> > > Ian replied ...
> > > I don't understand Mark, unless you're being ironic.
> > > Of course people continue to use logic to justify their actions,
> > > both for and against war in your example, and yes (in theory) they
> > > can reduce the argument to 0 (or equally 100%).
> > > But look where it gets us - bad deciscions.
> > > Logic is a triumph of wishful-thinking over reality.
> > > Which brings me back to the political correctness thread.
> > >
> > > msh says:
> > > Well, I guess I'm being ironic in the sense that I'm assuming that
> > > the commercial media will provide equal coverage to all sides of an
> > > argument, and that policy-makers in a putative democracy will be
> > > influenced by the opinion of the majority. Since this in no way
> > > resembles the world in which we live, yes, irony reigns supreme.
> > >
> > > However, for fun, let's assume my two preposterous premises. In the
> > > case
> > > of the most recent attack on Iraq, here's what would have happened
> > > (Ian,
> > > substitute the British equivalents):
> > >
> > > 1) People like Scott Ritter, Dennis Halliday, Hans von Sponeck,
> > > Michael Parenti, Howard Zinn, Noam Chomsky, Robert Fisk, Robert
> > > Parry, Alexander Cockburn would have received as much air and print
> > > exposure as people like Rush Limbaugh, Bill O'Reilly, Hannity and
> > > Whats-his name, Dan Rather, Ted Koppel, Peter Jennings, Jim Leher,
> > > Gordon Liddy, Oliver North, Colin Powell, Donald Rumsfeld, Connie
> > > Rice, Cheney and Bush.
> > >
> > > 2) Had this happened, the people of the US and Britain would have
> > > had more than enough information to recognize the bullshit evidence
> > > and bad logic advanced by their leaders for the purpose of justifying
> > > a
> > > murderous attack on a harmless and defenseless nation as the only way
> > > of
> > > removing a vicious tyrant who, only a few years before, still vicious
> > > and
> > > tyrannical, had been the darling of the same Western Powers who now
> > > sought
> > > his destruction.
> > >
> > > 3) Armed with this information, the people of the US and GB, (again,
> > > in
> > > my hypothetical world where governments are not owned by business and
> > > therefore respond to the will of the of the people) might very well
> > > have
> > > prevented the slaughter of thousands upon thousands of human beings
> > > who
> > > were no threat to anyone and had less to do with the 9-11 attacks
> > > than any
> > > tax-paying American (or Briton) who cheered or, worse, remained
> > > silent.
> > >
> > > Ian, this is how logic and evidentiary analysis might, and sometimes
> > > does, save lives.
> > >
> > > O Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood...
> > >
> > > Best,
> > > Mark (msh)
> > > --
> > > InfoPro Consulting - The Professional Information Processors
> > > Custom Software Solutions for Windows, PDAs, and the Web Since 1983
> > > Web Site: http://www.infoproconsulting.com
> > >
> > > "Thought is only a flash between two long nights, but this flash is
> > > everything." -- Henri Poincare'
> > >
> > > --
> > > InfoPro Consulting - The Professional Information Processors
> > > Custom Software Solutions for Windows, PDAs, and the Web Since 1983
> > > Web Site: http://www.infoproconsulting.com
> > >
> > > "Thought is only a flash between two long nights, but this flash is
> > > everything." -- Henri Poincare'
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Mark Steven Heyman (msh)
> > > --
> > > InfoPro Consulting - The Professional Information Processors
> > > Custom Software Solutions for Windows, PDAs, and the Web Since 1983
> > > Web Site: http://www.infoproconsulting.com
> > >
> > >
> > > "Thought is only a flash between two long nights, but this flash is
> > > everything." -- Henri Poincare'
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
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