From: Paul Turner (paul@turnerbc.co.uk)
Date: Tue Aug 24 2004 - 11:12:22 BST
Ham
Ham said:
If Pirsig is saying that Quality is the source of everything, and
everything is Quality, then he is positing a tautology; i.e., Quality is
the source of itself.
Paul:
The primary division of the MOQ is that Dynamic Quality is the source of
all distinguishable things, and all distinguishable things are static
patterns of quality.
Ham said:
Not only is this logically invalid...
Paul:
No it isn't. It would, however, be illogical to state that Quality is
everything and, if it can't be its own source, is therefore also not
everything. (Although I think there is Indian logic which permits this,
but this logic is usually used to point away from itself to an
alternative understanding. I'm sure Scott will correct me :-))
Ham said:
Are we to accept the idea that man (whose essence is Quality) is judging
and acting upon a reality that is his own essence? If so, we are
discussing a philosophy that is based on the purest form of solipsism.
Paul:
The MOQ agrees with Buddhism that the self has no primary independent
reality. Therefore the self cannot in any way be the *only* reality,
which is the claim of solipsism. I may be wrong, having not read your
thesis, but if you think that every thing, including the self, has "an
essence" this may be confusing you with regards to the MOQ.
Ham said:
Reality is much too complex and purposeful in design not to have an
architect.
Paul:
Complex and purposeful? Agreed. Pre-meditated "design" does not
necessarily follow; hence, neither does the need for an architect.
Ham said:
Of course the atom did not build New York -- man did. But Pirsig would
have us believe that the edifices of man are the work of an insentient
power. This Giant, this moral force, this Value that Pirsig says
contains man and has named as the architect of reality is beyond the
reach of man, because the author has "partitioned" him off through a
self-serving heirarchy of levels.
Paul:
Slow down. The "giant" is not "the architect of reality," or the "moral
force," it is a colourful term used to describe the static social
patterns which are, in a significant philosophic sense, independent of
any particular individual *biological* humans e.g. the system of
authority and rules and customs and protocols and laws and standards and
institutions which do not cease when individuals die.
Pirsig is saying that these static social patterns, "the city" in the
example, are left behind by the creative moral force of Dynamic Quality,
the sense of "betterness." This "moral force" is not beyond the reach of
man, it is the source of experience that everyone is confronted with all
the time. Man is only "partitioned" from this direct experience to the
degree that his behaviour is directed by the static patterns that have
built up from this experience through his life.
Ham said:
A "benevolent god" may be an old-fashioned nostrum and no longer worthy
of
consideration in our intellectually enlightened age. It at least had
meaning. Pardon me if it seems idealistic, but I see Value as relating
to something more esthetic and cosmically meaningful for mankind than
this mechanistic evolutionary scheme.
Paul:
When I said "pick up your reading glasses," I meant that it would be
useful if you had read and digested the books containing the philosophy
we are discussing before "putting your boxing gloves on" i.e. debating
it. I may be wrong but it seems to me that you have not done this. This
is because I read your phrases such as "mechanistic evolutionary scheme"
used to describe a system which makes statements such as:
"Naturally there is no mechanism toward which life is heading.
Mechanisms are the enemy of life. The more static and unyielding the
mechanisms are, the more life works to evade them or overcome them,"
and
"..patterns of life do not change solely in accord with causative
"mechanisms" or "programs" or blind operations of physical laws. They do
not just change valuelessly. They change in ways that evade, override
and circumvent these laws. The patterns of life are constantly evolving
in response to something "better" than that which the laws have to
offer."
and
"[Quality is] the principle of "rightness" which gives structure and
purpose to the evolution of all life and to the evolving understanding
of the universe which life has created."
Regards
Paul
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