From: David Buchanan (DBuchanan@ClassicalRadio.org)
Date: Sat Aug 28 2004 - 23:47:35 BST
Ham, Paul and all MOQers:
Ham said:
Are we to accept the idea that man (whose essence is Quality) is judging
and acting upon a reality that is his own essence? If so, we are
discussing a philosophy that is based on the purest form of solipsism.
Paul replied:
The MOQ agrees with Buddhism that the self has no primary independent
reality. Therefore the self cannot in any way be the *only* reality,
which is the claim of solipsism. I may be wrong, having not read your
thesis, but if you think that every thing, including the self, has "an
essence" this may be confusing you with regards to the MOQ.
dmb adds:
First let me say that Paul has done another fine job and I'm gratful for it.
There's another thing that may be confusing Ham. The MOQ concieves of the
self in a way that defies Western common sense. It defies the idea of a
subjective self looking out upon an objective world, (SOM) and all its
permutations. The MOQ's self is more like the Buddhist's or the mystic's,
which says we are one with the universe already, whether we realize it or
not. We're it. Thou art that. Atonement. It is expressed many ways, but the
idea is basically that, yes, the essence of reality and the essence of man
is exactly the same.
Ham said:
...Pirsig would have us believe that the edifices of man are the work of an
insentient power. This Giant, this moral force, this Value that Pirsig says
contains man and has named as the architect of reality is beyond the reach
of man, because the author has "partitioned" him off through a self-serving
heirarchy of levels.
Paul replied:
Slow down. The "giant" is not "the architect of reality," or the "moral
force," it is a colourful term used to describe the static social patterns
which are, ...the system of authority and rules and customs and protocols
and laws and standards and institutions which do not cease when individuals
die. ...This "moral force" is not beyond the reach of man, it is the source
of experience that everyone is confronted with all the time.
dmb adds:
Right. The giant is a metaphor for the social level and is meant to
highlight that level's independence from biological values and the
advantages such a higher life form has over mere animal existence. This is
part of Pirsig's attack on the Modern West's idea that "man is born free,
yet everywhere he is in chains". Pirsig repeatedly points our that society
makes us more free than the jungle will allow and that it has been
disasterous to think of society as inherently oppressive. Again, this is
meant to contradict Western common sense where, as Ayn Rand wrongly puts it,
"There is no such thing as society. There are only individuals".
But its actually Ham's other assertion, that Pirsig "has partitioned him
(man)off through a self-serving hierarchy of levels", that I'd like to
address. I think its clear that Pirsig has done the very opposite with the
hierarchy of levels. In the MOQ, people are seen as a jungle of static
patterns from all levels with an ability to respond to DQ. In this picture,
so-called man is entirely embedded with and synonymous with the world. The
forces that make up the social level giant are not different from people,
and people are not different from the forces that make up their biological
parts and processes, BUT there are still important distinctions between
these levels. Pirsig also likes to point out that we don't have these
patterns within us so much as these patterns have us within them. They have
us, we don't have them. But if it helps to conceptualize it, one could say
we are both the giant and the bodies it consumes at the same time. In any
case, the main idea here is that the levels don't partition anything. It
embedds all the levels into an integrated worldview of endless evolutionary
relationship. In fact, this move is meant to bridge the gulf between mind
and matter, cure the isolation and alienation caused by SOM and otherwise
remove the distance between reality and ourselves.
Thanks,
dmb
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