From: Wim Nusselder (wim.nusselder@antenna.nl)
Date: Mon Sep 06 2004 - 06:09:29 BST
Dear Platt,
I wrote 2 Sep 2004 08:14:00 +0200:
'A certain amount of equality is necessary to maintain social stability. The
whole of humanity is part of one society (even if people also belong to
different sub-societies), so on a global scale a certain amount of equality
is also necessary.'
You wrote 2 Sep 2004 10:22:54 -0400:
'First, you've arbitrarily created a new definition of society--the whole
world. Most people understand the word to mean as the dictionary defines
it: "a community, nation, or broad grouping of people having common
traditions, institutions, and collective activities and interests."
Second, your proposition that a "certain amount of equality" is required
to maintain stability leaves it totally up in the air about how much is a
"certain amount."'
I don't think I created a new definition of society. Humanity as a whole is
a broad grouping of people sharing a lot of common traditions, institutions
and collective activities and interests. In MoQish: there are a lot of 3rd
level patterns of value in which all humans participate. We tend to identify
with (the symbolic representations at the 4th level of) the -relatively few-
3rd level patterns of value that distinguish us from sub-societies to which
we don't belong and only a small part of our identity consists of our
self-identification as 'human', though.
Can we first agree that SOME equality is required to maintain stability of
any society, before starting to discuss (and probably disagree) HOW MUCH is
required for a specific society? That is THE issue between conservative and
progressive/liberal politics and we usually don't choose the same position
in that continuum.
You continued:
'To judge the validity of [E.g. a system of ideas that contains the idea
that everyone is born with equal, unalienable rights cannot allow too much
difference in rights between those who belong and don't belong to a specific
society.] we should know how you define "rights." Should everyone in a given
society have rights to benefits involuntarily paid for by others, or should
everyone have the right to private property and full control over how his
income is spent?'
I don't think the right to social benefits, private property and an own
income are unalienable rights one is born with. There are too many parts of
the world in which they don't exist or are severely limited AND where people
experience their alternative 3rd level patterns of value as 'normal' and
morally right. But you live in a society where that system of ideas is
widely shared, so you better answer whether these rights should be equal for
every human and how much difference we should allow between
Americans/Westerners and non-Americans/non-Westerners.
'Resp.' means 'respectively'.
You continued:
'My interpretation of what you are saying is that a society that guarantees
freedom of religion, of the press, trial by jury, etc., etc. as set forth in
the Bill of Rights of the U.S. Constitution is morally superior to,
say, Iran or China.'
That first society shows harmony with 4th level patterns of value (i.e.
system of ideas valuing freedom of religion, of the press, trial by jury,
etc., etc.). That's only one of my three criteria for judging how far
societies are advanced in social evolution. For a complete judgement, you
also need to assess their stability and versatility.
You concluded:
'It's all well and good to champion "equality" in a general sense. But the
going gets rough when you get down to specifics and the question becomes the
proper balance between the needs of society and the freedom of the
individual from social coercion.'
When we agree first on WHY it is well and good to champion some equality, we
can then continue more easily to discuss the specifics.
With friendly greetings,
Wim
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