From: Platt Holden (pholden@sc.rr.com)
Date: Mon Sep 06 2004 - 14:35:32 BST
Arlo,
> And this language (social semiotic) shapes the selective decisions of the
> "figure sorting sand into piles". I am not denying the activity of
> "individuals", nor am I denying that individuals (and not societies)
> repsond to DQ. What I do deny is that these "individuals" respond
> intellectually outside (in any way) of their socio-cultural system.
That would make multi-linguists and multi-culturists much more creative
that the rest of us. Any evidence that this is so?
> Indeed, if all it was "just" experiencing DQ, then, sure, rename the
> intellectual the individual all you want. But it is not just "experiencing"
> DQ that occurs at the intellectual level. It is experiencing followed by a
> representation or orientation to selective aspects of that experience. And
> that is filtered through the social semiotic.
If the "filter" is as strong as you say it is, how do new ideas arise?
> To restate this another way, individuals "experience" but only through
> social semiosis can representation- and hence, the intellectual level-
> emerge.
My position is that language and society "emerged" simultaneously and that
symbolic representation (intelligence, intellect) is part and parcel of society.
What Pirsig is talking about in referring to the intellectual level is that fairly
recently intellect emerged to dominate society, and that a society that
esteems the intellectual characteristics of reason and scientific inquiry is
is at a higher moral level than a society that follows traditional
religious teachings. Both reason and scientific inquiry are properties of
individual free thinkers, not the great unwashed who are dominated by
religious beliefs, e.g., fascist-Muslims.
> "Individuals" devoid of a social semiotic will not engage in the
> intellectual level at all. Do you agree or disagree?
Agree because human beings devoid of language would not only not engage in
the intellectual level but would not be human beings. Do you agree or
disagree?.
Platt
MOQ.ORG - http://www.moq.org
Mail Archives:
Aug '98 - Oct '02 - http://alt.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/
Nov '02 Onward - http://www.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/summary.html
MD Queries - horse@darkstar.uk.net
To unsubscribe from moq_discuss follow the instructions at:
http://www.moq.org/md/subscribe.html
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.5 : Mon Sep 06 2004 - 14:44:14 BST