Re: MD A bit of reasoning

From: David Morey (us@divadeus.freeserve.co.uk)
Date: Mon Sep 13 2004 - 18:51:34 BST

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    Scott

    Personally I think you are looking
    in the wrong place to address these
    problems. I think the problem can be
    solved by looking at the difference between
    SQ that is experienced via perception
    and SQ that is experienced but not
    projected into the perceptual realm
    of 3d space.

    DM

    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "Scott Roberts" <jse885@earthlink.net>
    To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
    Sent: Sunday, September 12, 2004 5:32 PM
    Subject: Re: MD A bit of reasoning

    > David M,
    >
    > > You are wanting it both ways, you can't
    > > agree that Pirsig has a very restricted use
    > > for the word intellect and complain that you
    > > want to talk about lots of interesting stuff in
    > > what Pirsig calls pre-intellectual.
    > > The substance of the debate is what this
    > > pre-intellectual contains whatever we call it.
    > > Let's discuss this interesting stuff, the powers of DQ
    > > prior to the more human and social type forms that
    > > Pirsig calls intellectual. I think a more confident MOQ
    > > could use your use of the word, but I think I understand
    > > Pirsig's motives in terms of rhetoric. It also has an
    > > element of substance with respect to it being difficult
    > > to start talking about the capable powers that clearly
    > > exist prior to the 4th level, no matter what we call it.
    >
    > His rhetoric, as you put it, removes the only way we can get at the
    > interesting stuff, if what Pirsig calls pre-intellectual is in fact
    > intellect writ large. Of course, a lot of spadework is required to show
    > this, thanks to most everyone's beliefs in naive realism (to some degree
    or
    > other) and nominalism, but it can be done. What Pirsig did was sweep the
    > problems of mind under the rug, which he had to do given these beliefs.
    > This makes his metaphysics untenable, indeed unempirical, not merely
    > incomplete.
    >
    > The "capable powers that clearly exist prior to the 4th level" are, in my
    > view, the powers of the 4th level (which we have only a dim use of), which
    > makes the 4th level not "just another level". To deny that is more than a
    > bit of rhetoric. It is a metaphysical claim, and such a claim means that
    we
    > either will look in the wrong place to explicate those powers, or simply
    > not look at all (the supposed Zen response). So, morally speaking, we need
    > to resolve this debate before we can hope to move on.
    >
    > - Scott
    >
    >
    >
    >
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