From: Joseph Maurer (jhmau@sbcglobal.net)
Date: Mon Sep 20 2004 - 17:12:20 BST
On 18 September 2004 4:13 AM David M writes to all
[David M] When these localised expressions
of what are clearly universal patterns interact with each other
they may conflict or be brought under the coherent influence
of a less localised pattern.
<snip>
But it seems obvious to Read that
there is a form of non-spacial causality that influences all
current patterns. This causality occurs between patterns that are
not spacially related but related in terms of similarity of pattern.
This he calls sympathic causality, where similar patterns in the past
influence and bring about the internal organisational capacity
of current patterns. It is the interaction of proximate and.....
Hi David M and all,
joe: trying to understand Pirsig in terms of Geoffrey Read is confusing. IMO
in the moral hierarchy of evolution there are universal levels which as dq
are unpatterned. The levels may be universal Patterns that create patterns.
I accept that an individual pattern can contain patterns of the other
levels. It is the characteristic of a center of gravity that marks the
pattern as belonging to one level. There can be no exact representation of a
level by an individual pattern.
It may be that I cannot accept moral levels, but I would like a specific
example of how they are not possible. In my analysis of the Goaaaaal!
example that you proposed before, I was able to view it as an organic
activity of purpose. Though the one scoring the goal could use as motivation
any level IMO it would be an immoral act to use order (existence) or
intellect (unfinished s/o) as motivation to try to score the goal.
Efficiency would be impaired, and the ball would go astray.
To combine the levels in one pattern, I would see 'bundles' in the pattern
rather than 'sympathetic causality'. Are words bundles? Translation from one
language to another is not an exact science. I get a headache trying.
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Morey" <us@divadeus.freeserve.co.uk>
To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
Sent: Saturday, September 18, 2004 3:33 AM
Subject: Re: MD Pirsig and Geoffrey Read's The Coherent Universe
> Hi all
>
> In a book about the approach to
> philosophy and science of the British philosopher
> and mathematics lecturer Geoffrey Read called
> The Coherent Universe, the relationship between
> patterns and causality are discussed in an interesting
> way that I suggest closely relate to and expand upon
> those of Pirsig. Read suggests two ways in which patterns
> are causally related. Firstly patterns interact with each
> other due to spacial proximity. This he calls proximate
> causality and is the sort of external, 3d time-space
> causality that we are all familiar with. Patterns are clearly
> organised into numerous local associations, each pattern
> represents a local organisation that at a certain level
> has split itself off from all other patterns so as to maintain
> its own internal integrity. When these localised expressions
> of what are clearly universal patterns interact with each other
> they may conflict or be brought under the coherent influence
> of a less localised pattern. But it seems obvious to Read that
> there is a form of non-spacial causality that influences all
> current patterns. This causality occurs between patterns that are
> not spacially related but related in terms of similarity of pattern.
> This he calls sympathic causality, where similar patterns in the past
> influence and bring about the internal organisational capacity
> of current patterns. It is the interaction of proximate and sympathic
> causality that brings about the complex properties of all
> experience. Human experience is made possible by both
> the dynamic influence of an ever changing arrangement of patterns in the
> space-time framework, plus the ever present influence of
> all past patterns. Clearly experience is only possible via the
> interaction of these two aspects of SQ. We have complex experience
> because we are able to re-cognise patterns in the so-called external world
> because we have the pattern already loggged in the sympathic internal
> world. This distinction with respect to 2 different ways SQ patterns
> interact accounts for why we have both an internal and external world
> within the larger whole of all experience. It is this interaction between
> present and past patterns that account for the duration essential to
> understand both intelligrnce & experience, as Scott has pointed out.
> Once again I recommend reading The Coherent Universe available
> at amazon.co.uk i.e. UK only.
>
> regards
> David Morey
>
>
>
>
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