From: Mark Steven Heyman (markheyman@infoproconsulting.com)
Date: Sat Oct 23 2004 - 03:55:30 BST
Hi David,
Your response was fun to read, but it's a great example of DMB's
complaint about too much candy and not enough stew. I'll try to
break your unnecessarily Faulknerian paragraph. into more manageable
parts.
On 21 Oct 2004 at 18:29, David Morey wrote:
That question makes no sense to me
and I have no way to answer it. God or
quality are not beings or entities that may
or may not be absent from the world.
I think the problems here come down to
ontology. As Pirsig says there is only
experience.
msh says:
But Pirsig is the one who proposed proving the existence of Quality
by seeing the absurdity of a world without it. It's a very clear
and convincing argument. Are you saying that this too makes no
sense?
david:
As Pirsig says there is only
experience. We then cut it up and use
bi-polar dualisms to analyse it. God and quality
are not clearly of this sort. We cannot differentiate
them out and contrast them to patterns that are
clearly different from god-type or quality-type patterns
msh says:
See above and ZMM. Pirsig does precisely this.
david:
The use of terms like god and quality is with respect
to understanding the dynamic non-patterned aspects
of our experience.
msh says:
Pirsig explicitly rejects the use of the word "God" for "Quality"
precisely because of the irrational baggage attached to "God", and I
agree. If any one believes the terms are equivalent and insists on
using "God" to describe reality, then I suggest that that person
desires confusion. not clarity. I'm trying to find out whether or
not you think the terms are equivalent.
scott:
Just ask yourself why you use a term
like cosmos or universe even though there is no way to
experience it as whole. To me it is clear that talk about
quality as a whole or dynamic quality is on pretty similar
ground to that occupied by truly philosophical thinking about
god.
msh says:
See immediately above.
david:
You might not like god-talk. Fair enough that's a matter of taste.
msh says:
No. It's a matter of avoiding confusion. See immediately above
immediately above.
david:
But you are always open to the accusation that whatever term you are
using is just a substitute for god. I think both options are good,
e.g. quality-talk gets us to think this deep stuff in a fresh way,
whilst god-talk can use old words and thinking where that thinking
has been good.
msh says:
See immediately above immediately above immediately above... In fact
the rest of your post seems to be an attempt to justify your use of
the word "God." I ask again: To you, are God and Quality the same?
david:
Most secular thinking fails to get as deep as Pirsig does, and let's
face it when he gets deep he starts to open his thinking up to what
is still religion, but of the eastern variety. I guess my position is
pro-deep thinking, and my suggestion is that unless you avoid deep
thinking, you are going to have to start talking about stuff that
often provoke the use of the god-word.
msh says:
Your position seems to be pro-confusion. SIAIAIAIA...
david:
Do you really imagine that we would talk about god for thousands of
years only to find that god is a fiction.
msh says:
Are you serious? Just look at what's been talked about for thousands
of years.
david:
So far my research shows me that this secular argument is pretty
weak, that it has more to do with avoiding hard thinking and tough
questions.
msh says:
Again, it has to do with promoting clarity, avoiding confusion.
david:
For me the MOQ is part of a movement in thought that is shouting Hey!
things are not as simple as science and secular thought claims. We
have been on a journey. I suspect that going forward we may now have
to think again about retrieving some of the concepts and thinking
that may show where we have falsely simplified reality.
msh says:
Agreed. But sort of off the point... Again, again, I'm trying to
discover whether or not you think the terms "God" and Quality" are
equivalent. If not, what's the difference? If so, why use "God"
except to confuse rather than clarify?
Best,
Mark Steven Heyman (msh)
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