From: Sam Norton (elizaphanian@kohath.wanadoo.co.uk)
Date: Fri Oct 29 2004 - 11:14:10 BST
Hi Mark,
> msh says:
> Can you direct me to the relevant paragraphs? As I recall they are
> clearly numbered, and I won't soon have time to re-read the whole
> thing. However, off-hand, I can think of numerous situations where
> empirical evidence assessment occurs routinely, even under extremely
> traumatic conditions, for example, by firefighters, ambulance EMTs,
> ER personnel, fighter pilots, and even by regular people such as
> myself.
In On Certainty, I'd say read the first 20 or so paragraphs, then glance at paras 94-99, 105-108,
113-116 and 122. That should give you the gist of his stance. See also para 336 for a comment
relevant to this thread!
There is a distinction to be made between 'empirical assessment' and 'scientific assessment' I
think. A firefighter is presumably acting on the basis of their training and so on - they're not
taking a 'scientific' attitude. So it seems to me. Any views on that?
> msh asks:
> So how do miracles differ from myths?
As episode to story? I think there is a clear overlap between them. The trouble comes when 'myth' is
taken to mean 'not factually true' as I think there is an irreducible factual claim at the heart of
Christianity, ie that certain things did happen, most importantly the resurrection, however we are
to understand that (this is where DMB and I differ most I think. I think he would say that
Christianity doesn't necessarily involve such a factual claim).
> msh says:
> Ok, I understand this. But there seems to be something missing.
> Doesn't the nature of the revelation play a part in determining what
> is and isn't a miracle? The examples you give from John suggest
> things about a particular man, things that are meant to reveal that
> he's not your average Joe. You say a miracle need not be
> supernatural but must lead to a revelation. Was Newton's apple
> incident a miracle? How about when Robert Brown gazed into the smoke
> from his pipe and had revealed to him the fact that minute particles
> immersed in a fluid will experience a random movement? Or when
> Phaedrus heard Sara's seed-crystal remark about teaching Quality?
Interesting line of thought. I would tend to say Newton's apple was a miracle in something like the
sense that I am describing, not least because it then got taken up into the mythology of science.
It's not a Christian miracle, but I think it is analogous, yes. I would probably equate revelation
with a positive inbreaking of DQ, and that can happen in any tradition of understanding (and there
are static elements in each tradition which determine what can and cannot count as 'positive' DQ).
> msh says:
> Just one comment though, and maybe a little off-point. Although I
> disagreed with Chuck about the need for animosity in attacking
> religious thought, I believe he has some valid points. It's quite
> clear that religion, as it is taught in the trenches, is far, far
> removed from the lofty thoughts of Hauerwas or Brueggemann. So it's
> easy to understand why people who want to think about religion are
> driven away at an early age. Why would the brass up at the holy end
> of the bureaucracy permit such a state of affairs, unless they really
> do want to discourage thinking?
When you talk about how religion is 'taught in the trenches', what specifically are you referring
to? It's just that I'm not sure how valid such a description is when talking about the 'mainstream'
churches (begs the question of mainstream, of course, and I think the mainstream in the US is
different to the mainstream everywhere else, for fairly clear historical reasons). Certainly I'm
teaching something different in my part of the trench! (and I don't think I'm particularly rare in
that)
Do come back on the point about needs, I'd be interested in exploring that. Perhaps in a different
thread though - how about MD Religion, neurosis and DQ?
Regards
Sam
MOQ.ORG - http://www.moq.org
Mail Archives:
Aug '98 - Oct '02 - http://alt.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/
Nov '02 Onward - http://www.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/summary.html
MD Queries - horse@darkstar.uk.net
To unsubscribe from moq_discuss follow the instructions at:
http://www.moq.org/md/subscribe.html
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.5 : Fri Oct 29 2004 - 11:14:42 BST