From: Mark Steven Heyman (markheyman@infoproconsulting.com)
Date: Thu Oct 28 2004 - 03:46:46 BST
Hi Sam,
On 27 Oct 2004 at 23:37, Sam Norton wrote:
> msh says:
> In this case there is abundant empirical evidence to support the
> idea that someone else is thirsty. In fact, if he is indeed in a
> state of dehydration, it is a logical necessity. msh says: I'm
> suggesting there is a reasonable and empirical middle ground
between
> believing everything that's reported, and believing nothing.
We're in agreement on that latter part. On the former, I'd recommend
reading (or re-reading!) Witt's 'On Certainty' - as and when you have
a spare half a day! Witt's main point is that you don't *deduce* that
the person is thirsty, you simply react. The process of assessing
empirical evidence is highly complicated and rarely used, and only
appropriate in specific circumstances.
msh says:
Can you direct me to the relevant paragraphs? As I recall they are
clearly numbered, and I won't soon have time to re-read the whole
thing. However, off-hand, I can think of numerous situations where
empirical evidence assessment occurs routinely, even under extremely
traumatic conditions, for example, by firefighters, ambulance EMTs,
ER personnel, fighter pilots, and even by regular people such as
myself.
> msh says:
> I guess I need to understand the sense in which you DO believe in
> miracles. I'll wait to hear, but I bet it's one variation or
> another of wanting to believe in order to fill a real or perceived
> need. Which, BTW, I think is fine. I just think it's a mistake to
> believe that everyone has the same needs.
sam:
The classic conception of a miracle understood it as a 'sign' - in
other words, the important point is the meaning of an event, not its
natural/supernatural status (which itself uses dodgy language, but
that's a whole other story).
msh asks:
So how do miracles differ from myths?
sam:
So what makes a miracle a miracle is not the 'power' or 'law-
breaking' aspect, but the significance of an event, ie what is
*revealed* through it.
msh says:
Ok, I understand this. But there seems to be something missing.
Doesn't the nature of the revelation play a part in determining what
is and isn't a miracle? The examples you give from John suggest
things about a particular man, things that are meant to reveal that
he's not your average Joe. You say a miracle need not be
supernatural but must lead to a revelation. Was Newton's apple
incident a miracle? How about when Robert Brown gazed into the smoke
from his pipe and had revealed to him the fact that minute particles
immersed in a fluid will experience a random movement? Or when
Phaedrus heard Sara's seed-crystal remark about teaching Quality?
sam:
I think your point about 'wanting to believe in order to fill a real
or perceived need' is an allusion to a Freudian style reading of
religion as a 'cure' for neurosis. If there is a need, it flows from
the common human nature you referred to in another post.
msh says:
Maybe. I'd like to see if we can further define that common need.
And, if such a need can be clearly defined, it may very well be that
there are a widw variety of ways to fill it.
sam:
And as you might imagine, I don't see religion as a crutch or shield,
behind which I might be sheltered from the harsh realities of life.
Rather the opposite. We could pursue this if you like.
msh says:
I'm very sorry about the condescending tone of my remark. It wasn't
intentional. I have no doubt that for you religion is neither a
crutch nor a shield.
Just one comment though, and maybe a little off-point. Although I
disagreed with Chuck about the need for animosity in attacking
religious thought, I believe he has some valid points. It's quite
clear that religion, as it is taught in the trenches, is far, far
removed from the lofty thoughts of Hauerwas or Brueggemann. So it's
easy to understand why people who want to think about religion are
driven away at an early age. Why would the brass up at the holy end
of the bureaucracy permit such a state of affairs, unless they really
do want to discourage thinking?
Kindest regards,
Mark Steven Heyman (msh)
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