From: Scott Roberts (jse885@earthlink.net)
Date: Sat Nov 06 2004 - 16:23:57 GMT
Mark,
> On 5 Nov 2004 at 17:25, Scott Roberts wrote:
> I agree with Platt on this. The Caesar quote says nothing about
> encouraging his followers to impose taxes, just to pay them, not to
> impose law but to obey the law, and not mix up God's things with
> Caesar's. To give out of the goodness of one's heart is one thing, to
> take from the rich to give to the poor is another. It is one own's
> wealth that one is to give away, not someone else's.
>
> msh says:
> Scott, I gotta tell ya, I had to read this post three times to make
> sure it was written by the same guy with whom I've been discussing
> the relative merits of the MOQ and MOC. It is astonishing to me that
> someone so comfortable on Level IV can be so naïve or self-deluded
> about what goes on at Level III. Wealth is and always has been
> accumulated and held by VIOLENCE, through conquest followed by
> slavery, then enforced with violence as needed through various
> controlled elements of political power. We are seeing it happen at
> this instant, as American forces begin their slaughter of Iraqis in
> Falluja.
Well, all I was trying to say is what I think Jesus' political philosophy
would be, not mine. However, since mine is not all that different, let me
try to justify it anyway.
Yes, wealth has mostly, but not entirely (Pirsig's royalties, for
instance?), been accumulated and held by violence. But Jesus' answer to
violence is to turn the other cheek, not to use violence to grab the wealth
back. A socialist government would be doing that. This does not imply that
a socialist government is necessarily a bad thing, though in the cases
where socialist governments have been imposed by force, they turned out
badly. But social democracies seem to work ok. My preference would be if my
country (the US) moved more in that direction -- I consider our health care
system to be unjust, for example. I am all for safety nets.
But this is on the social level. One looks around and sees if things could
be organized better, to identify and work to change laws that benefit
special interests at the expense of others, and so on. But one should not
expect to get very far in this activity. As long as the intellectual level
is weak compared to the social level, power is going to attract the
corruptible, whether that power is in the hands of captains of industry, or
in the hands of bureaucrats. And, as long as the intellectual level does
not first and foremost understand the necessity of self-critique, then
intellectuals are corruptible.
> scott continues:
> Basically, I think Jesus would be apolitical. Work on oneself, and
> help your neighbor (who is anyone you run across that needs help),
> rather than try to fix things through politics, as in "And why
> beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but perceivest
> not the beam that is in thine own eye?" (Luke 6:41)
>
> msh says:
> The idea expressed here is precisely what Freud meant when he said
> religion is the opiate of the masses. Don't try to fix things
> through politics; the people who are running things know best: let
> them handle it. Scott, I'm gonna be depressed for the rest of the
> evening... say it ain't so.... :-(
It hardly implies that the people who are running things know best. It
implies that nothing is going to run well unless and until people evolve,
so that no one seeks power over others, and so no one seeks escape through
drugs or religion. Marxism is just another drug -- a way to ignore the
necessity for self-critique by identifying an external enemy to blame.
Neo-conservatism and religious fundamentalism are other such drugs,
identifying a different enemy. Such enemies may be real, but one's own
imperfections are always the most immediate problem needing addressing.
- Scott
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