From: mel (mbtlehn@ix.netcom.com)
Date: Sat Nov 13 2004 - 05:14:47 GMT
Hello Chin,
(interleaved reply)
Chin said:
I agree with your thoughts, both on academics, and on subject-object, as
I feel it pretty difficult to escape suibject-object as it is imbedded
in all our languages, and we couldn't express ourselves without it. The
successful academics have been offered a higher stance in society
because they can express this subject-object well.
mel:
As the world of Academia is as much Social in its
tone as it is Intellectual, there will always be those
who manipulate the social to their advantage.
Chin said:
Mind and matter seem to be creations of man as well, and came about in
around the same period as subject and object. Mind has so many
definitions that it is difficult for me to grasp what we are speaking of
when we say 'Mind over matter,' or use the term 'Masterful mind' as I
did earlier. Matter is simple; you can touch it or observe it in some
way.
mel:
I think we all suffer that same problem.
It may be that every point of consciousness in the
universe has a different point-of-view of mind.
Even to meet common ground we struggle so
to agree on terminology and still largely miss.
Chin said:
When someone says there must be a masterful mind at the center of the
universe, could you not equate masterful mind with what Pirsig is
calling Quality. If you think of religion, God is the masterful mind,
the Quality, that created the universe. When you think on more
scientific terms, you have to think that the Quality that created the
universe was intention or desire; maybe a thought; not in the way we
would see thought now, but this intention or desire to become something
other that what it is; maybe to become something more than what it is.
Quality would be the one string, or the nothingness that began the
universe, and grew into what the universe is now (if the strings hold
true:).
I realize that what I am offering is not on an intellectual level with
what Mr. Pirsig was offering, but in simplistic terms, if everything
depends on quality, then quality would be God, or the masterful mind
that we are all trying to connect with. This would be what someone
referred to previously as "The Source." The "Oneness" would be the
attempt of connecting to the original quality, the thought that has
expanded into all the thoughts that now make up the subjects and objects
we speak of.
mel:
That seems a natural equation in a general way,
but to many, that historical baggage and all the
implied arguments over God and the nature of
God make it too painful to consider. Other
terminology seems easier to use. But the
idea is still there.
Chin said:
In this line of thinking, tangible and intangible would be no more than
words, as the tangible couldn't be without the intangible. 'The Good'
and 'The Truth' would be extremes outside the collective mind, and the
combination of good and truth would be the collective reality we live
with.
The discovery of this Quality would have to come from the collective
minds, or "The Mind" that makes up this Quality. Maybe the reason we
can't come to grips with Quality is that we are all right, but at the
same time, we are all inadequate, as Galileo, Newton, and Einstein were
all brilliant, just inadequate to the dynamics that came after.
mel:
We all rely tremendously on the fruit of collective minds
and we are all truly severely limited, but at times it seems
that a "quiet mind" may more easily see, what we know,
what we think, what we don't know, and the limits of our
lives, in a better way than a messy chattering mind full of
too many others' words.
In the Gumball guessing contests, it has been found that the guesses
vary widely, but the collective of these entries came astonishingly
close to the actual number of gumballs in the jar. It may be the same
with the answer to "Where does quality reside?" It may reside in the
collective thoughts of all that make up the universe that we live in,
from the worm to the man.
Please forgive me, as I can ramble on for hours without making any sense
whatsoever. I'll let it rest now, but my vote would be that Quality, as
pondered by Mr. Pirsig, does not reside anywhere, but everywhere.
Everything does depend on it.
mel:
WELL STATED!
Quality, as a universal interpenetrating presence,
a collective spirit if you will, seems to me a
good bet also.
thanks--mel
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