Re: MD Making sense of it (levels)

From: Steve Peterson (speterson@fast.net)
Date: Thu Jan 23 2003 - 13:23:27 GMT

  • Next message: Matt the Enraged Endorphin: "Re: MD Question"

    Matt, Wim, all,

    > Does it not seem that the whole talk of 'entities' is
    > indicative of discourse taking place within the SOM?
    > My interpretation of Pirsig is that one should think
    > of things as patterns only. The genius/retard's
    > intellectual patterns connote high value, but his
    > existence socially - his non-conformity with social
    > value patterns - renders him an outcast. There seems
    > no need try to cram both his intellectual and social
    > existence into one concept of the social self.

    Wim was in agreement when he said:

    "I don't think it very useful to think of an individual (human) as either a
    social or an intellectual pattern of value. Such an individual is a subject
    or an object (depending on your point of view) and can be an element in all
    kinds of patterns of value."

    ...and...

    "I think Pirsig isn't making things clearer by talking about
    'biological/social/intellectual entities. It would be better, I think, to
    stress that thinking in terms of patterns of value is to be distinguished as
    clearly as possible from thinking in terms of subjects and objects. Equating
    objects with inorganic and biological patterns of value and subjects with
    social and intellectual patterns of value (which Pirsig did explicitly in
    his SODV-paper; see on www.moq.org) is only excusable as a crude rule of
    thumb or short introduction to SOM for SO-thinkers. It's a fallacy, I
    believe, to try to categorize 'things' (usually visualized as subject or
    object) as a pattern of value of one of the levels.

    We should first be clear about what we mean with a 'pattern of value' (and
    how it is to be distinguished from a subject or an object). Only then can we
    categorize patterns of value."

    Steve:

    My problem is that I'm not sure how to categorize patterns of value any
    better than subjects and objects.

    MOQ.ORG - http://www.moq.org
    Mail Archive - http://alt.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/
    MD Queries - horse@darkstar.uk.net

    To unsubscribe from moq_discuss follow the instructions at:
    http://www.moq.org/md/subscribe.html

    This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.5 : Thu Jan 23 2003 - 16:05:30 GMT