From: Sam Norton (elizaphanian@kohath.wanadoo.co.uk)
Date: Sun Nov 14 2004 - 08:31:20 GMT
Hi DMB,
You're confusing two things. Firstly, does Pirsig believe and argue that genocide is immoral?
Second, does the MoQ support that argument? You're defending Pirsig on the first, whereas I'm
wanting to explore the second. It seems to me that there is (another) incoherence here, and I think
that it is worth unpicking. Descending to ad hominems doesn't make your point any clearer.
So I will ask once more: in what way does the MoQ give value to people as such, rather than to the
patterns of value of which people are composed? Despite the torrent of words, you haven't answered
that question.
If anyone else wants to try, I'd be delighted to pursue the matter in a more reasonable fashion. In
the meantime, I shall just be more confirmed that there is a glaring hole in the MoQ.
Sam
> dmb says:
> My plan for later today or tommorrow is to post some ideas in the "ON
> TRANSCENDENCE" thread, ideas that get at the issues we've been exploring as
> a group in several threads. I think one of the central reasons for your
> questions in this thread is that you don't really see the distinction
> between the little self and the big Self, between ego consciousness and
> one's ultimate identity. I think this same confusion is at the center of our
> disagreements about theism and mysticism too. I hope I can get it all across
> clearly and I hope others find it as exciting and as clarifying as I did. In
> the mean time, let me say just a few things about "ethnocide" and other
> morally outrageous acts...
>
> Its hard to imagine that your curiosity is sincere, Sam. Doesn't Pirsig
> explicitly address the issue of genocide in his criticisms of pragmatism?
> Does he not explicitly pit the genocidal giant against the intellectual
> principles that protect human rights? I've pointed all this out before. In
> order to even pose the question, one first has to strip intellectual values
> of their content and meaning. Hitler's genocidal mania was anti-intellectual
> above all, as Pirsig describes it. It was the social level Victorian mind
> that believed, "the only good Indian is a dead Indian". And its the social
> level giant that "doesn't mind losing a few bodies" in order to preserve
> itself. The intellectual level, not just the capactity for abstract thought
> but the values it produces, are very much aimed at putting the breaks upon
> this murderous giant. Pirsig marks the beginning of intellect's dominance in
> society as a reaction to the senseless violence of WW1. See? Putting the
> intellect on top is all about NOT KILLING. Rights and Democracy free the
> intellect from social control, but let us not forget that life and liberty
> are our most basic human rights. Over and over and over, he makes this
> point. This is why I doubt the sincerity of your questions. I don't mean to
> be cruel, Sam, but how could you miss this point?
With Pirsig's emphasis on the role of the contrarian, of the lone wolf, on
biography as a driving force in history, I wonder how anyone could question
the existence of people in the MOQ. I've tried to provide a patient and
courteous explanation here, Sam, but I don't want to give you the wrong
impression. I find your assertions, that the MOQ might condone genocide and
that it might doubt the existence of people, entirely laughable. I mean,
what OTHER world is described by the MOQ, except the one we all know so
well? If there are no people, then who are you asking? If Pirsig is
unconcerned with genocide, why does he spend so much time explaining the
forces behind it? And the whole thrust of these BIZZARE interpretations is
that the MOQ is wildly immoral. Since the whole point and purpose of the MOQ
is to re-assert morality in the biggest way, so that morality is the very
structure of the universe, your assertions, Sam, are both hateful and
irrational.
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