From: David Buchanan (DBuchanan@ClassicalRadio.org)
Date: Sun Nov 14 2004 - 22:36:20 GMT
Scott:
Some good points here. I am aware of the religious involvement in almost all
of America's best social justice movements, not least of all the abolition
of slavery. But I'd also point out that Lincoln and MLK were shot to death,
the admitance of gays into the Episcopal Church could very well shatter it
in two, liberation theology has been throughly demonized and equated with
communism and the Christic Institute is a rare exception, especially these
days. And most importantly, such ecumenical forces were conspicuosly abset
during this election season. What we're looking at and talking about is the
ascendence of the religious right, which really just began with the Reagan
administration. Still, you make a good point. Christians weren't always
fascists, but that is what we're looking at, don't you agree?
If your point is that I should say something nice about those other
christians each time I criticize the other, it sounds like you're asking a
little too much. I mean, you agreed with everything else that came before
and so you had to be perfectly well aware of what I was refering to, right?
And if you're interested in protecting a more respectable form of
christianity, why aren't you equally outraged by right-wing fundamentalists?
Rather than just distance yourself from them, why not contrast their hateful
ignorance with your own enlightened and compassionate christianity? Hey,
don't blame me because others have given christianity a bad name, This is
not a prejudice or ignorance, its an historical fact. Its a present fact. Do
we not have to deal with these problems if we are to discuss religion
philosophically.
Look, its clear to me that you identify with christianity to the extent that
any critiicism of it feels like criticism of you personally. But I can't do
anything about that. And I'm not going to refrain from expressing an opinion
on the grounds that it might hurt someone's feelings. And to accept the
actual content of that criticism and then demand qualifiers that exempt you
from that criticism is - well frankly - childish. Its an emotional demand,
not a rational one.
-----Original Message-----
From: Scott Roberts [mailto:jse885@earthlink.net]
Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2004 11:57 AM
To: moq_discuss@moq.org
Subject: RE: MD Moral values and the election
DMB,
[Scott Prev:] Are you unaware that millions of American Christians dislike
Bush as much as you do, support gay rights, are against the war in Iraq and
the Patriot Act, etc. etc.? Would it have been so hard to insert a qualifier
in your statement, such as "fundamentalist" or "right-wing"?
dmb says: What, "Christo-fascism" doesn't cover it well enough for you? And
if there is an actual group of christians that can be certainly identified
as liberal and intellectual, I'm not aware of it. I mean, where are these
christians hiding? Show me.
[Scott:] You moved the goal posts. Since you are convinced that 'faith'
implies 'anti-intellectual' I don't see how I can show you. All I can do as
far as 'intellectual' is list authors: Peter Berger (who I quoted earlier),
Andrew Greeley, David Tracy, etc., etc. and wonder if someday you might look
into this question for yourself rather than basing it on prejudice.
As for liberal (in the American sense), some 90% of Americans believe in
God, but only 51% of the electorate voted for Bush. You can do the
arithmetic. Specifically, did you not notice that the Episcopal church
installed an openly gay bishop? Remember the Berrigan brothers? That the
civil rights movement was led by the Reverend Martin Luther King and had
huge support from Christians, that the Sanctuary movement to protect
Salvadorans and others that the government wanted to deport during the 80's
was a Christian group, that the group that filed the lawsuits against the
Reagan administration over Iran-Contra was called The Christic Institute?
The following is from
http://www.skepticfiles.org/socialis/christic.htm
<http://www.skepticfiles.org/socialis/christic.htm>
The Christic Institute unites Christians, Jews and other religious
Americans
on an effective and practical platform for political change. Among our team
of
forty professionals and our network of 70,000 supporters nationwide are the
followers of many faiths--including Roman Catholics, Protestants, Anglicans,
Unitarian Universalists, Jews, New Agers and the adherents of traditional
Native American religion. We also count among our supporters and coworkers
Americans who identify with no religious faith, but share our values of
compassion and justice."
Given your passion for liberal causes it is unbelievable that you aren't
aware of those who should be your allies, but instead you would prefer to be
"saved" from them.
- Scott
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