From: Mark Steven Heyman (markheyman@infoproconsulting.com)
Date: Mon Nov 15 2004 - 18:58:52 GMT
Hi Mel,
Thanks for taking the time to write a thoughtful response. I do
appreciate it. However...
I'm afraid I don't see my question as even remotely similar to "Have
you stopped beating your wife, yet?" Nor did I ask for your opinion
of the U.S. Gov't aggregate plans over centuries of policy. My
question was quite a bit more specific.
I agree the world is a complex place, but are you suggesting this
means that we cannot form valid moral judgements about the actions of
individuals or institutions, including ourselves, in very specific
situations? That in every case we "will need to matrix
out all affecting and effecting layers and levels
of actors as analytical dimension and show each
by intent - if stated, actual act, mediation or influence,"
presumably back to the dawn of humanity?
If this is your position, then it's hard to see how you would have
the time to formulate an opinion about the morality of any human
activity, at all. And it's hard to understand what your interest in
a moral metaphysics like the MOQ might be.
Can you not think of even one instance when the U.S. Government
advanced its goals through the deliberate slaughter of innocents?
How about the Israeli government? The governments of Saddam Hussein
or Pol Pot? Stalin? These are yes or no questions.
If you don't have any such opinions, or if you feel that it is
impossible for you to form an opinion on even very specific questions
in a timely manner, then I guess that's the end of our discussion.
Thanks for your time,
Mark Steven Heyman (msh)
--
InfoPro Consulting - The Professional Information Processors
Custom Software Solutions for Windows, PDAs, and the Web Since 1983
Web Site: http://www.infoproconsulting.com
"Thought is only a flash between two long nights, but this flash is
everything." -- Henri Poincare'
On 15 Nov 2004 at 9:02, mel wrote:
Hello Mark:
There you go again, trying to interpret,
when you merely need read.
My points never engaged the plans of the
U.S. Government. I expected better from
you than a "Have you stopped beating your
wife yet?" response.
However, if you truly are interested in
my opinion of the U.S. Gov't aggregate
plans over centuries of policy, then
having only some specific knowledge and
a general overview knowledge of the rest,
I will have to give the non-arrogant
answer.
The U.S. policy varied by tribe, by time,
by administrator, by area, by treaty, by
commanders in the field, by the wind of
politics, and doubtless many other factors
of which I am not now aware.
Actual execution of policy is, historically,
obviously more important than mere statement
of policy. Execution is what HAPPENED.
Often the reality of policy was reactive rather
than planned. Local or opportunistic folks were
often able to foment troubles that would get
the army involved if the Indian Affairs people
seemed to actually show some backbone and
wish to abide by a treaty.
At any point the left-hand / right-hand
confusion was as real then as now, one
department working at cross purposes to
another.
Any time a BIA or other government man was
"too friendly" to the Indians, his position
was apt to be targeted as a lobbying point
for replacement with someone who would "better
look after" the government's interest (which means
the lobbyist's interests).
Some folk were diligent, some were just typical
political hacks. (Believe it or not even back
in the historical age before Technicolor there
were folk as torn by influence or conscience as
NOW.) Their effectiveness varied and often the
work of one was ultimately undone by a successor.
To properly analyze this you will need to matrix
out all affecting and effecting layers and levels
of actors as analytical dimension and show each
by intent - if stated, actual act, mediation or
influence, and then you would get a real answer.
It might take years and then you would not have
throw away generalizations to use. As it is any
"stance" has support and as generalizations
smeared across history they are all wrong.
Sorry, but the world is a complex place.
thanks--mel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-moq_discuss@venus.co.uk
[mailto:owner-moq_discuss@venus.co.uk] On Behalf Of Mark Steven
Heyman
Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2004 1:17 PM To: moq_discuss@moq.org
Subject: RE: MD Wisconsin School OKs Creationism Teaching
Mel,
If my interpretation of your words is incorrect, then here's your
chance to correct me, for the record. I'll ask you again:
Do you, or do you not agree that the U.S. Government planned and
carried out mass exterminations of indigenous Americans in order to
acquire their land?
If you do not agree, then please defend your position with historical
references and sound reasoning, rather than evading the question with
what I am sure you consider to be witty badinage.
If you choose not to defend your position, then please do not bother
to respond. I have better things to do with my time.
Thanks,
msh
--
InfoPro Consulting - The Professional Information Processors
Custom Software Solutions for Windows, PDAs, and the Web Since 1983
Web Site: http://www.infoproconsulting.com
"Thought is only a flash between two long nights, but this flash is
everything." -- Henri Poincare'
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