From: Scott Roberts (jse885@earthlink.net)
Date: Fri Nov 19 2004 - 03:29:04 GMT
Mark,
> scott said:
> Then, I would say, you haven't escaped SOM.
>
> msh says:
> It is not my intention to "escape" SOM. I think SOM is encompassed
> by the MOQ, not replaced by it. I think sometimes a SOM explanation
> is perfectly adequate for describing much of what we experience, as
> in the case of mathematics under discussion.
>
> For me, the strength of the MOQ over SOM, in some cases, is that the
> MOQ adds the dimension of Quality, so that quality value judgements
> can be recognized and defended in SOM science, and in other relevant
> aspects of everyday life.
>
> In fact, and I might be risking the annoyance of my other friends
> here on the list, I think Pirsig made a mistake when, in ZMM, he
> decided to move away from his metaphysical trinity of Quality-Subject-
> Object. In setting Quality above the other two, he began to say
> things about Quality that have exposed him to a lot of not entirely
> unwarranted philosophical criticism. From that point on in ZMM and
> throughout LILA, this talk of Quality has resulted in the weakening
> (degeneracy) of his metaphysics. To his great credit, he knew this
> would happen, but considered the explanatory power of the MOQ to be
> worth the risk.
What I seeing is that in spite of his intention to move beyond (or above)
the old SOM divisions, he has failed. I notice that our disagreements
pretty much amount to your being more or less a materialist, and me being
more or less an idealist. And so, I find myself in greater disagreement
with Pirsig than you do, because I see him as making the same moves as
materialists do to resolve the supposed platypi. For example, privileging
empiricism over rationalism, renaming the philosophical concept of
'subject' out of existence, and those pesky things for a materialist
(notably free will) are all shoved into the category of Quality.
The one big difference in the MOQ from a materialist view is mysticism, but
there too I see too many concessions to a materialist tradition. No
mention, for example, of the religious aspects to mystical experience, such
as non-temporality, the Buddhist Mind Only school, and so forth.
Consider this as rambling, not a well-thought out statement.
- Scott
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