From: Scott Roberts (jse885@earthlink.net)
Date: Sat Nov 20 2004 - 17:32:23 GMT
Simon,
> The first "realisation" of the proof was a moment of high intellectual
> quality. High intellectual quality is sensed.
Then reason is being treated as a sense. If you want to call it that, then
are you now going to call Spinoza an empiricist?
>
> >I stand corrected, that is, I see that Pirsig treats value as phenomenal.
> >So now my question is: what is not phenomenal? What I am getting at is
that
> >what SOM divided, Pirsig is reuniting by ignoring one side of the
division,
> >as materialists do, by relabelling, rather than finding common ground.
>
> Nonsense. The material and mental division of SOM has a common ground in
> value.
The MOQ states that 'subject' is social and intellectual SQ. So now my
question is: what observes SQ? That is, what is it that has no property
other than it observes SQ? If you say it is other SQ, then I ask how do you
observe this observing SQ? If you say that observation is nothing other
than SQ/SQ interaction, then I would reply that you are sweeping the
problem under the rug (as materialists do), not addressing the question.
>
> >Thus, he extends empirical to cover what used to be rational *as distinct
> >from* empirical, and objective to what used to be subjective.
>
> I agree that he extends, and blurs with the philosophic meaning of
rational,
> the term "empirical", but he doesn't extend the meaning of "objective".
> Phenomenal just means "known through the senses" and quality is known
> through sense experience.
But it is known differently. I sense trees, the smell of coffee, etc. I do
not sense something I label value. All these things I sense have value, but
I do not sense it in the way I sense things and events. This puts value in
a category like space or time. Nothing that I sense is space or time, but I
know space and time as properties of what I do sense. As Kant pointed out,
space and time are the conditions for our sensing things and events, and I
would argue that value should be treated similarly.
- Scott
MOQ.ORG - http://www.moq.org
Mail Archives:
Aug '98 - Oct '02 - http://alt.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/
Nov '02 Onward - http://www.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/summary.html
MD Queries - horse@darkstar.uk.net
To unsubscribe from moq_discuss follow the instructions at:
http://www.moq.org/md/subscribe.html
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.5 : Sat Nov 20 2004 - 17:47:25 GMT