From: Ian Glendinning (ian@psybertron.org)
Date: Mon Nov 22 2004 - 13:54:17 GMT
Sam, DMB,
I've been watching this thread from the sidelines, but feel moved to
comment.
"Central truths of mysticism ... " - Why the Mystery ?
How about simply
"Life, the Universe and Everything ... is revealed through experience" ?
The "mystical" experiences listed in the thread are actually real-world
experiences.
(Or real world fantasies in real-world heads, in some cases, perhaps)
All that makes them "mystical" is the choice of explanation.
What is at issue is how you plug the gap in the absence of a readily
available simple explanation.
God-based fairy-tale, or pseudo-science, traditional myth, dead-metaphor,
whatever.
None is likely to be watertight or falsifiable, however convenient a simple
explanation.
Occam wins hands-down unfortunately.
Although I pooh-pooh materialist, objectivist scientific explanations as
much as deist ones, I do happen to believe physics underlies all phenomena
(that would be my working definition of physics in fact). The fact that
something is too complex for a simple explantion to be currently found (or
even ever found with absolute proof), doesn't make it any less likely that
such a basis exists.
Hard-to-explain (even, doubtful-and-hard-to-reproduce-at-will) phenomena
(and their experiences) are only mystical if you choose a mystical
explanation.
Life's complicate enough, without introducing fantasies.
(I'm disappointed my "time-out" thread on the basis of truth appears to have
died when I responded to the first round of questions.)
Ian.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sam Norton" <elizaphanian@kohath.wanadoo.co.uk>
To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2004 10:57 PM
Subject: Re: MD James, Pirsig, Mysticism
> DMB,
>
> Sam Norton asked:
> ...if the central truth of mysticism is an experience?
>
> dmb answered:
> No. The central truths of mysticism ARE REVEALED in an experience.
>
> Sam was surprized:
> Again, this is a very interesting development for me. I had been under the
impression that it was
> the experience "as such" that you were focussed on.
>
> dmb says:
> I can't imagine where you got such an impression.
>
> This was such a surprise that I did a search with the kind help of Mr
Google, some of the results of
> which follow after my signature. Perhaps I have been misreading you all
this time - but given the
> language that you have always used, I think it understandable.
>
> Anyhow, if you agree that truths get revealed in the experience,
presumably it's the truth which is
> important, not the experience? So we can talk about truth, now, can't we?
>
> Sam
> ~~~
>
> DMB wrote Sat May 03 2003:
> I'm putting the emphasis on one's personal encounter with the divine, on
the mystical experience
> itself. .... As Wilber puts it: It is only when religion emphasizes its
heart and soul and essence -
> namely direct mystical experience and transcendental consciousness, which
is disclosed not by the
> eye of the flesh (give that to science) nor by the eye of the mind (give
that to philosophy) but
> rather by the eye of contemplation - that religion can both stand up to
modernity and offer
> something for which modernity has desperate need: a genuine, verifiable,
repeatable injunction to
> bring forth the spiritual domain.
>
> From a post Mon Dec 02 2002 - 02:43:25 GMT
> Mari asked:
> So what exactly IS "mystical experience"? peyote? near death experience?
out of body experience?
> prayer? meditation? other? God?
> DMB says:
> Huge question. Many books have been written. Basically, it is a direct
experience of the divine. It
> can be triggered by many things including peyote, NDEs, OBEs, meditation
or even spontaneously.
>
> DMB wrote Sat Oct 23 2004 - 21:54:19 BST
> As I understand it, all the world's great religions began with a mystical
experience and their
> esoteric core remains mystical to this day.
>
> DMB wrote Sun May 11 2003 - 23:40:37 BST
> I'm saying that our Western religious CAN and SHOULD play a key role in
cultivating the mystical
> experience.
>
> DMB wrote Mon Apr 14 2003 - 01:26:10 BST
> I think the experience Kuitert is talking about is what we'd call an
unmediated experience in
> MOQese. That's why we don't find DQ even at the highest levels of sq,
because those are, by
> definition, mediated experiences. What were talking about is a mystical
experience, maybe something
> like the one Pirsig had in the teepee...
>
> DMB wrote Sun Dec 01 2002 - 02:23:42 GMT
> This is certainly where we disagree... It seems pretty clear to me that
religions and churches
> follow from the mystical experience. They've grown out of it and refer
back to it.
>
> DMB wrote Sat Nov 16 2002 - 20:34:47 GMT
> I don't deny that mainstream Catholicism and Orthodoxy have a certain
reverence for the sages and
> saints, but the rituals and forms of worship are not designed to induce a
mystical experience. There
> is no fire or peyote, only candles and a sip of wine. This is what it has
been reduced to. Not
> necessarily a very powerful or transforming experience.
>
> DMB wrote Mon Oct 13 2003 - 02:23:01 BST
> Hmmm. No, I'm pretty sure Pirsig's idea of matches the great religious
traditions and sees it as,
> not a transition between the 4th level and DQ, but a dissolution of all
static patterns. You know,
> be a dead man and all that. The unmediated experience is one that lets go
of whatever static
> patterns hold the self together. Its the ultimate emptying out of one's
cup so that one is naked or
> transparent or something. So I think it doesn't matter which point of the
scale, because the whole
> deal is supposed to go away for a while.
>
> DMB wrote Sat Dec 21 2002 - 21:27:27 GMT
> Sure, there are plenty of differences between myths, religions and
spiritual traditions, but there
> is a central core that says one must take the plunge. This is the hero's
journey. The aim of the
> journey is a unitive experience, a mystical experience.
>
>
>
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