Re: MD People and Value in the MOQ

From: Ian Glendinning (ian@psybertron.org)
Date: Wed Nov 24 2004 - 21:35:49 GMT

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    Platt,

    Not sure I agree that Scott's answer "nails" self,
    other than confirming that
    whilst it's weird, it is not an "illusion".
    It's hard nailing jelly to a wall,
    but jelly is not an illusion.

    A few points ...

    You say ...
    Of such conundrums and paradoxes
    [like those baffling koans]
    Buddhist "philosophy" appears to thrive.
    I say ...
    The philosophy is not in the koans.
    You don't find it by solving them.
    The koans are just an aid to thinking.
    You find the philosphy in reflection and introspection,
    and the states of consciousness to which it takes you.

    You say ...
    such a philosophy hardly appeals to the practical-minded.
    I disagree ...
    I'm a pragmatist and constantly accuse Pirsig / MoQ of being supremely
    pragmatic.

    You say ...
    Paradox and humor get close to the fire of truth
    I usually say ...
    Many a true word spoken ...
    in jest, riddle, aphorism, metaphor, whatever.
    Same as it ever was.

    Ian
    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "Platt Holden" <pholden@sc.rr.com>
    To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>; <owner-moq_discuss@venus.co.uk>
    Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2004 3:13 PM
    Subject: Re: MD People and Value in the MOQ

    > Scott:
    >
    > > Buddhist philosophy does not quite say that the self is an illusion.
    What
    > > is said is that the self, like everything else, does not have inherent
    > > self-existence. That is, everything exists by being related to
    everything
    > > else ("dependent co-origination" is the usual term), but does not exist
    by
    > > itself. There is no way to state this in a way that conforms to
    > > Aristotelian logic. Hence the need for the logic of contradictory
    identity.
    > > The self exists by negating itself, as Nishida puts it. So, the phrase
    "the
    > > self is an illusion" is just as much an error in Buddhist philosophy as
    > > "the self exists". The traditional Buddhist formulation is the
    tetralemma:
    > > One cannot say that the self exists. One cannot say that the self does
    not
    > > exist. One cannot say that self both exists and does not exist. One
    cannot
    > > say that the self neither exists nor does not exist.
    >
    > Thanks, Scott. Makes sense in a weird sort of way. What Buddhist
    > philosophy does, in essence, is deny philosophy. "Thought is not a path to
    > reality,." itself a thought that is neither real nor unreal, etc.
    >
    > Of such conundrums and paradoxes Buddhist "philosophy" appears to thrive.
    > Like those baffling koans.
    >
    > Of course, the problem is such a philosophy hardly appeals to the
    > practical-minded, like those who find it of value to survive in a world
    > where lions, tigers and bears don't understand paradox and exhibit no
    > sense of humor. (E.B. White wrote, "Paradox and humor get close to the
    > fire of truth.")
    >
    > Be that as it may, you've nailed the Buddhist (and Pirsig's) notion of
    > "self." I'm grateful for being enlightened. :-)
    >
    > Best,
    > Platt
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
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