From: PhaedrusWolf@aol.com
Date: Sat Nov 27 2004 - 15:42:57 GMT
In a message dated 11/27/04 10:05:45 AM Eastern Standard Time,
jse885@earthlink.net writes:
My view, which differs from the MOQ, is that DQ is never independent of SQ.
Rather, DQ and SQ always exist only insofar as they oppose each other as
they constitute each other, that is, they follow the form of contrdictory
identities. And so I reject the concept of "pure experience". All
experience is always a DQ/SQ opposition, which is best exemplified by our
experience of intellect.
Hi Scott and Steve,
Please forgive the intrusion.
Just some thoughts.
DQ, Quality, and 'Quality experience' are interchangeable. They all mean DQ.
DQ is a "Pure (raw) experience," where SQ would be the concepts that are
applied to our perceived reality. SQ is also derived from experiences, and
includes subject, object, and events. Quality came before subject and object and
events. We discover DQ, we do not create it. Our ideas are no more than DQ
revealed to us; right or wrong. Once we realize it is right; the concept holds
true as best as we can know in the moment, then DQ becomes SQ. DQ can also come
from SQ, but I don't necessarily see it as an opposition.
I'll give an inadequate example of this. In Lila he said something about a
song. This song is reality, it is here and now, and it is unquestionable as to
whether or not it is a song. You discover the song, and feel it has DQ. You
rush out and buy the record. After playing it too many times, it becomes SQ,
but you keep the record to play for your friends, for which it once again
becomes DQ, until it becomes SQ in their view. A few years later, it comes back
on the radio, and the experience from the first time you heard the song comes
back. Quality changes when you view it. SQ/DQ are intertwined.
Newton's laws of 'Time and Space' were shown to be inadequate by Einstein;
Einstein's theory became the DQ. Hawking believes Einstein's 'Theory of
relativity' to be inadequate as time changes from where you view it. It may be that
Newton's laws of 'Time and Space' have DQ, and now Einstein's doesn't.
In the example of the song, SQ is the song, and DQ is the experience from
the song which becomes SQ.
DQ is not superior in any way to SQ other than DQ is an undiscovered SQ. Our
immediate view of this experience is DQ. Once it is viewed and accepted it
becomes SQ. Once a pattern in SQ that has been questioned, and dismissed, but
is viewed anew, then it may once again become DQ.
Just as with scientific theories, no matter how much data you have used to
prove your theory, you cannot know that the next data you use will not disprove
it. DQ may be the discovery of a lifetime, or it may turn out to be not even
worthy of becoming SQ, then as it is viewed in a new light, it may once
again emerge as DQ.
SQ is like a divided reality; a reality that was there prior to the
experience, so it may not be true reality; just 'A' reality, a map we use to go
through life with, until our experience changes it. DQ is the experience that
changes it(?)
I like your reference to Buddhism as "Middle ground." The Quality found in
SQ/DQ might be this 'middle ground', or the 'Sweet spot' Mark Maxwell speaks
of.
What SQ/DQ offers is a map that removes the division between subject,
object, consciousness, and the world outside. "Pure experience," or raw experience
allows you the ability to know what you are experiencing is real. It doesn't
require the intellectual division of 'stuff'. It is real, as it has been
experienced. It doesn't require as Richard Prior once offered his wife after
being caught in the bed with another woman; "Are you going to believe me, or your
lying eyes?"
SQ/DQ removes the division between thought and 'The real thing'. The
undivided experience plays partly on the 'Knower', the consciousness or state of
mind, while also playing a part of the 'Known'.
MarshaV mentioned her paining. This represents a good James example. The
paint before applied to the painting represents the 'Known', and after applied
represents the 'Knower', and when viewed represents the Known and the Knower at
the same time. It is DQ - SQ combined. You don't need to analyze that
painting, just simply enjoy the experience, the "Pure experience" of it.
I like the idea of "Pure experience," or raw experience, or undivided
experience you speak of, as anything experienced is real, as real gets, in the
moment it is experienced.
Like I said, just thoughts; rambling thoughts. No need for reply, I just
wanted to offer my experience of what I have read in this thread.
Chin
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