From: Erin (macavity11@yahoo.com)
Date: Sun Nov 28 2004 - 16:00:37 GMT
Sam also said:
I'm interested in your response to Erin's question, by the way...
Erin asked:
How do you reconcile your interpretation of Pirsig's interpretation of Lila
with this...."A person who holds an idea is a social entity, no matter what
ideas he holds. The ideas he holds are an intellectual entity, no matter who
holds them."
DMB had said:
Pirsig says she does and does NOT have quality at the same time. She has
biological quality, even if that's starting to fade, but she has no
intellectual quality and is socially pretty far down the scale.
dmb says:
What is it that needs to be reconciled? And by the way, those comments about
Lila are Pirsig's too, as I'm sure you recall, you old grudge-holder, you.
ERIN: idea = intellectual entity so you would have to admit Lila has some intellectual value. Please reread what Pirsig wrote to Paul Turner. You are confusing the social title "Intellectual" which Lila is not, with the intellectual value (she clearly does exist at this level albeit it is consitently low intellectual value, whether your "msygonistic" self wants to admit or not, kidding don't think it is msygonistic, I'm sure you wold tell anybody who disagrees with you as having no intellectual quality, more like egotitism. By the way disagreeing with you about something is not "grudge holding".
But really DMB you don't see a contradiction between your interpretation and Pirisig's "definition" ---"Intellect" can then be defined very loosely as the level of independently manipulable signs. Grammar, logic and mathematics can be described as the rules of this sign manipulation. Do you really want to claim that Lila is devoid of the above?
RP: First of all, the line that, "Biologically [Lila's] fine, socially she's pretty far down the scale, intellectually she's nowhere. . ." did not mean that Lila was lying on the cabin floor unconscious, although some interpretations of the intellectual level would make it seem so. Like so many words, "intellectual" has different meanings that are confused. The first confusion is between the social title, "Intellectual," and the intellectual level itself. The statement, "Some intellectuals are not intellectual at all," becomes meaningful when one recognizes this difference. I think now that the statement "intellectually she's nowhere," could have been more exactly put: "As an intellectual Lila is nowhere." That would make it clearer that the social title was referred to and the dispute about her intellectuality would not have arisen.
Another subtler confusion exists between the word, "intellect," that can mean thought about anything and the word, "intellectual," where abstract thought itself is of primary importance. Thus, though it may be assumed that the Egyptians who preceded the Greeks had intellect, it can be doubted that theirs was an intellectual culture.
When getting into a definition of the intellectual level much clarity can be gained by recognizing a parallel with the lower levels. Just as every biological pattern is also inorganic, but not all inorganic patterns are biological; and just as every social level is also biological, although not all biological patterns are social; so every intellectual pattern is social although not all social patterns are intellectual. Handshaking, ballroom dancing, raising one's right hand to take an oath, tipping one's hat to the ladies, saying "Gesundheit !" after a sneeze-there are trillions of social customs that have no intellectual component. Intellectuality occurs when these customs as well as biological and inorganic patterns are designated with a sign that stands for them and these signs are manipulated independently of the patterns they stand for. "Intellect" can then be defined very loosely as the level of independently manipulable signs. Grammar, logic and mathematics can be described as
the rules of this sign manipulation.
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