Re: MD "Is there anything out there?"

From: Ian Glendinning (ian@psybertron.org)
Date: Mon Jan 03 2005 - 12:15:39 GMT

  • Next message: Paul Turner: "RE: MD The MOQ and Mysticism 101"

    Huh ?

    Platt said:
    How do you explain that reality obeys mathematical laws created by
    intelligence?
    Paul replied:
    Reality doesn't obey mathematical laws. Reality just does what it does and
    mathematical laws are a good approximation of what some of it tends to do.

    I say
    Some of reality DOES obey some mathematical laws.
    The point is NO mathematical laws are created by intelligence, any more than
    Newton (or Einstein) created gravity.
    Reality behaves according to physics, many physical relationships exhibit
    mathematical rules, maths itself is full of axiomatic relationships. Some
    parts of maths & physics are axiomatic by definition - the snake eating its
    own tail as DMB says.

    DMB goes on to say
    If "reality" means the universe that physicists study, then the MOQ would
    describe it as inorganic static patterns of quality.
    But if we're talking about the primary empirical reality, which is DQ, and
    DQ is described as indefinable and only apprehended by non-rational means,
    then all the formulas and equations in the world are of absolutely no use
    and have nothing at all to say about "reality".

    I say
    But its the same "empirical" reality they are both describing / modelling.
    Physics is not confined to the Inorganic SQ box, unless you constrain
    physics it to a very limited set of classical laws. Few physicists since
    1920's have been happy to be locked in that box - read Heisenberg /
    Schroedinger etc.
    Physics (by axiomatic definition) can describe all the processes of all
    reality, every thought we have is founded on physics, but at the high social
    / intellectual er levels of complexity it simply ceases to be very useful
    for day to day descriptions, predictions and decisions.
    DQ/SQ/Layers model is simply a better model of empirical reality for most
    day to day real life. But it's only a model / metaphor.

    The DQ models "primary empirical reality" much better than the Physics
    model, for most of real life, but they both model the whole of reality.
    That value judgement - "better" - is what the MoQ s about, but there is no
    exclusivity or absolution here.

    Ian

    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "David Buchanan" <DBuchanan@ClassicalRadio.org>
    To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
    Sent: Sunday, January 02, 2005 10:56 PM
    Subject: RE: MD "Is there anything out there?"

    > Platt said:
    > How do you explain that reality obeys mathematical laws created by
    > intelligence?
    >
    > Paul replied:
    > Reality doesn't obey mathematical laws. Reality just does what it does
    > and mathematical laws are a good approximation of what some of it tends
    > to do.
    >
    > dmb says:
    > If "reality" means the universe that physicists study, then the MOQ would
    > describe it as inorganic static patterns of quality. And instead of the
    laws
    > of physics we have an extremely consistent pattern of preferences. So its
    > the "behaviour" of those static patterns that can be described and
    predicted
    > with mathematical precision. This is a matter of correspondence between
    two
    > levels of static reality, inorganic and intellectual. This is a snake
    eating
    > its own tail.
    >
    > But if we're talking about the primary empirical reality, which is DQ, and
    > DQ is described as indefinable and only apprehended by non-rational means,
    > then all the formulas and equations in the world are of absolutely no use
    > and have nothing at all to say about "reality".
    >
    > Now put that pencil back in your pocket protector and back away slowly :-)
    >
    >
    >
    >
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