From: Mark Steven Heyman (markheyman@infoproconsulting.com)
Date: Mon Jan 03 2005 - 17:29:19 GMT
Hi Paul, Ian, all...
Thanks for taking some time with this.
Msh said:
I long ago recognized that our perceptions (phenomena) are
necessarily and forever out of spatial and temporal sync with
noumena, and that our glimpses of things-in-themselves are mystical
and fleeting.
Paul said:
That isn't what I, the MOQ, or mystics are saying. There are no
things-in-themselves. The primary 'reality-in-itself' is nothingness.
msh says:
Ok, I'm gonna work on understanding that last sentence. Thanks for
the Pirsig quotes: they help with understanding the difference
between "nothingness" and "no-thing-ness." No-thing-ness, no
objectivity, is not hard to understand; it's just hard to believe.
But the same was said of relativity theory, so there's hope for me
here as well.
Msh said before:
But if you are saying that the "enlightened ones" have come to
understand that everything exists in the human mind, with no external
corresponding reality, then, yes, this is madness.
Paul replied:
Actually, it's subjective idealism.
msh quibbles:
Well, I guess we can call it anything we like. When someone goes
into a McDonalds and starts shooting everyone because he "sees" them
as cockroach aliens from a distant galaxy, subjective idealism
provides no way to say he's wrong. But since this isn't what you are
saying...
Msh said before:
Furthermore, I'm suggesting that the "enlightened ones" themselves do
not believe this [that reality is an illusion]. The Dali Lama wears
corrective lenses and sandals, after all. He must be trying to see
SOMETHING clearly; to protect his feet from hot asphalt and real
stones.
So... you wanna fight about that?
Paul:
Not really. Glasses are as real as eyes and hot asphalt is as real as
burning feet.
msh asks:
Would you agree that visual sense data are changed for the better
(become more valuable) by the use of corrective lenses? If so, how
is this change related to DQ preselecting valuable data? It seems
that we must say that DQ is getting a little help?
paul said:
Enlightenment is an absence of conceptualised
perception, not an absence of reality.
msh says:
I understand this, I think.
paul said:
I speculate that the experience of hot asphalt would become
indistinguishable from a sensation of pure negative quality.
msh asks:
Is this "sensation of pure negative quality" the same as we would
experience if the asphalt were not just hot, but boiling?
Thanks again,
Mark Steven Heyman (msh)
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