RE: MD The MOQ and Mysticism 101

From: David Buchanan (DBuchanan@ClassicalRadio.org)
Date: Sun Jan 09 2005 - 04:33:31 GMT

  • Next message: hampday@earthlink.net: "Re: MD Universal Moral Standards"

    MSH, Chin, Scott and all MOQers:

    Here is Pirsig in LILA page 377:
    "He thought some more about Lila's insanity and how it was related to
    religious mysticism and how both were integrated into reason by the MOQ. He
    thought about how once this integration occurs and DQ is identified with
    religious mysticism it produces an abalanche of information as to what
    Dynamic Quality is. A lot of this religious mysticism is just low-grade
    'yelping about God' of course, but if you search for the sources of it and
    don't take the yelps too literally a lot of interesting things turn up."

    The following two statements are from Pirsig. Both are taken from
    correspondence with Anthony McWatt by way of Paul Turner. (Thanks guys):

    "Things themselves" is an old subject-object metaphysical presumption.
    The MOQ denies there are "things themselves" that are independent of
    value. On close scientific examination "things themselves" always turn
    out to be a relationship between other things."

    "The characterization of the Buddha's world as "nothingness" has been a
    source of Western confusion, leading some to consider Buddhist nirvana
    as a form of suicide. What is meant by Buddhist "nothingness" is no
    "thingness" that is, "no objectivity". Since the use of the undefined
    term "Quality", denies objectivity without suggesting some kind of
    vacuum, it helps to clarify what Buddhist nothingness is."

    Here is Pirsig in Lila's Child p.348:
    "Quality in the MOQ is monistic and thus is not the same as Kant's
    "thing in itself" which is the object of a dualism."

    "In Zen training, meditation is used to dissipate static intellectual
    blockage. Complete removal of all static blockage constitutes
    enlightenment." [Pirsig, Sept 16th 2004]

    Pirsig in ZAMM p143:
    "In all of the Oriental religions great value is placed on the Sanskrit
    doctrine of Tat tvam asi, "Thou art that," which asserts that everything
    you think you are and everything you think you perceive are undivided.
    To realize fully this lack of division is to become enlightened."

    From the Guidebook to ZAMM, p22:
    "In the spiritual traditions of both East and West - I am thinking not about
    particular religions, but about the mystical element to be found in them all
    - we find the claim that eventually one must let go of the activites of
    thought and imagination in order to enter a region of consciousness that
    such symbolic activity cannot reach."

    Here's Alan Watts in his "MYTH AND RITUAL IN CHRISTIANITY":
    "mysticism ...of this kind involves a far more acute awareness of the plain
    evidence of the senses than is usual, and that, so far from retreating into
    a subjective and private world of its own, its entire concern is to
    transcend subjectivity, so that man may 'wake up' to the world which is
    concrete and actual, as distinct from that wich is purely abstact and
    conceptual. Those who undertake this task unanimoulsly report a vision of
    the world startlingly different from that of the average socially
    conditioned man - a vision in whose light the business of living and dying,
    working and eating, ceases to be a problem. It goes on, yes, but it ceases
    to be the frantic and frustrating pursuit of an ever-receding goal, because
    of the discovery that time - as ordinarily understood, is an illusion.

    Yet another consequesnce of this acute awareness of the real world is the
    discovery that what has been felt to be one's 'self' or 'ego' is also an
    abstraction without reality - a discovery in which the 'mystic' oddly joins
    hands with the scientist who 'has never been able to detect any organ called
    the soul'. That which takes the place of the conventional world of time and
    space, oneself and other, is properly described by negatgions - 'unborn,
    unoriginated, uncreated, unformed' - because its natue is neither verbal nor
    conceptual. In brief, the 'seers' of this realty are the 'disenchanted' and
    'disillusioned' - those who are able to employ thoughts, ideas, and words
    without being spell-bound and hypnotized by their magic."

    See what I mean? If your life depended upon correctly guessing what the
    point is here, what would be your guess?

    Thanks in any case,
    dmb

    MOQ.ORG - http://www.moq.org
    Mail Archives:
    Aug '98 - Oct '02 - http://alt.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/
    Nov '02 Onward - http://www.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/summary.html
    MD Queries - horse@darkstar.uk.net

    To unsubscribe from moq_discuss follow the instructions at:
    http://www.moq.org/md/subscribe.html



    This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.5 : Sun Jan 09 2005 - 04:37:14 GMT