From: Phaedrus Wolff (PhaedrusWolff@carolina.rr.com)
Date: Sat Jan 15 2005 - 04:58:43 GMT
Hi Chuck, and all,
Chin:(earlier)
For the Christian to go to Iraq, and try to force their religious views on
the people of Iraq is wrong. For Pirsig or anyone else to 'Force' their
views on the culture is just as wrong.
Chuck:
I don't remember Pirsig ever threatening anyone with eternal damnation or
shouting "Quality is on our side! Right before bombing the shit out of those
unfortunate enough to live over large caches of fossil fuel."
Chin:
First let me apologize for the wording in my statement, as I do realize
Pirsig is 'Not' trying to force his views on anyone. It may have been better
stated " . . . for anyone to force Pirsig's views . . ."
Not defending Christianity, but the religion for the bombing was the
religion of Capitalism IMHO. However, I must admit that the whole idea of
being justified to do so might be from a 'Self-righteous' version of
Christianity.
Chin:(earlier)
If Quality is the greatest force in the universe, then instead of telling
them they are wrong, you simply show them how Quality is a higher quality
way of looking at things. Quality is just as much a higher quality way over
the fairy tales of science and philsophy as it is the fairy tales of the
Bible. Quality can no more be proven to exist than God, so the Christian can
look at the MOQ as just another set of fairy tales to believe in. Who's
fairy tales you choose to believe will be in accordance to who's side you
are on -- Who has the best signs yelling "Hooray for our side!"?
Chuck:
Science is constantly questioning itself. Religion is constantly covering
its tracks. Apparently this God fellow is a being, a creator, a designer,
intelligent I'm told. Quality, I think is more of a concept. Like Reality
and Virtue.
Chin:
I do not argue with this. It is more in the way we approach offering the
concept of Quality that I am reviewing.
Chuck continues:
This is the MoQ.org after all. I don't go to deadguyhangingfromatree.org
and heckle the minions.
Chin:
I have given this much thought, as I do see my bringing up Christianity (or
other deity religions) as being viewed as heckling, and have considered
dropping the whole thing. This would mean I would have to leave though, as
it is a thought I have, and as a thought I have, if honest to Y'all and
myself, I must reveal it.
Chin:(earlier)
Is it that God, as with my thoughts on intuition, is too difficult a concept
to deal with in the MOQ? If so, then maybe it would be best to avoid trying
to change the view of the Christians, because if you are going to tell them
they are all stupid, and they believe in fairy tales, they are simply going
to turn around and tell you that it is you who believes in fairy tales.
Chuck:
As far as I'm concerned, God is just too silly a concept. We could also
discuss the monster that hides under my three-year-old daughter's bed; the
one that my dog and I have to scare off every night before she'll go to
sleep, but I never suggest it as I doubt anyone would take it quite as
seriously as the three of us do.
Chin:
I remember something similar to your daughters experience when I was
possibly around the same age. The monster under her bed is as real as God to
a grown-up Christian. As with your daughter, you have to deal with it on
their level. You can know on the highest level of enlightenment, but you
have to deal with those around you on their level. You can't expect them to
be on your level until they have become enlightened. You can only give them
an incomplete picture for them to work out on their own -- the planting of
seeds of knowledge might be a good way to look at it.
Chin:(earlier)
If you truly believe in the concept of Quality, then Quality is in, before,
and after the social patterns as much as it is the inorganic and biological
patterns. If the intellect is to be in charge of changing the social
patterns, then it will take an intellectual psychological view as much as
scientific view to change the thinking of a people who have been cutlurally
and/or neurologically predispositioned to certain predjudices.
Chuck:
I'm not here to improve society, only myself.
Chin:
A good step toward improving society. I could use much improvement as well,
on top of the obvious that I do not pay enough attention to spelling :o)
IMHO, the whole concept of the MOQ is pointed toward improving society. If
it is an immediate improvement, fine, but the ultimate improvement may be
more like planting a tree that bears no fruit in your lifetime.
If patient, I feel fairly comfortable the MOQ seed will work its way into
society, or Western culture. My concern over how the Christian is treated
may not be warranted in a metaphysical sense; only on a compassion and
caring sense.
As I don't feel very enlightened at present, I could only guess, but feel
that from a mystical experience we may come away with compassion, caring,
and peace of mind of high regard.
>From compassion and caring, I might think the peace of mind for those here
at MOQ.org might be better served if I dropped the argument over how
Christians are approached with a higher Quality view. The same would hold
true for the church; my views are not going to be welcome. Nor is my view
going to be welcomed by the H.A.s or Outlaws, and Democrats and Republicans
may be a hopeless case. :o)
Please know that I pretty much agree more than disagree with everyone I am
arguing with here. All I offer, and all I can hope to offer is a differing
view, and one that I do not see as right, but only need be considered.
I do feel the Christians need to open their eyes, and not accept blindly the
concepts that have not been open to intellectual or enlightened views. Maybe
philosophical shock treatment will work as well as anything I could ever
come up with.
What I didn't highlight, I felt stood well without comment. Thanks for your
sincere thoughts and also the kind words.
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