RE: MD Further comments to Matt

From: Ron Winchester (phaedruswolff@hotmail.com)
Date: Thu Jan 20 2005 - 01:19:22 GMT

  • Next message: Ron Winchester: "MD Lost replies"

    Hi Matt;
    If experience is reality

    and reality is everything,

    then everything is experience.

    If Quality is experience

    and Quality is reality,

    then everything is Quality.

    All Pirsigian's agree to those syllogisms (or have yet to deny them to me).

    Wolff;
    "Very good. Everything real is experienced somewhere, and everything
    experienced is real somewhere"

    Matt continues;
    If everything is Quality, then why does someone telling you what Quality is
    move you away from it? Isn't the "telling" Quality, too?

    Wolff;
    Yes, "telling' is Quality, but believing without independent and critical
    thought is not. Can you not know Quality without the benefit of someone
    pointing to it with words from the past?

    It would seem to me everyone knows Quality. If you arrive at this Quality on
    your own, and learn to think in terms of Quality, then you are much better
    prepared to place Quality in your everyday decisions. If you learn Quality
    from someone else, and ask how this someone else would think in the event
    you needed to make a Quality decision, How can you know?

    Would you not know Quality because Quality is already there before you think
    about it?

    I'm sorry, but the idea that someone else can tell you what Quality is is
    beyond my understanding.

    Matt continues;
    As I asked at the end of "Philosophologology," "Why is the history of
    philosophy bracketed off from the kinds of experiences that are the
    legitimate concern of philosophy? Why is the experience of a book relegated
    to a lower position than the experience of a hot dog?"

    Wolff;
    I would think the experience from a book is on a higher level than that of a
    hot dog. Consumption of someone else's ideas will offer much more than
    consumption of food. Acceptance of someone else's ideas as the final word is
    a low level of Quality. If you read everything written, by every philosopher
    who wrote, or was written about, or even the most accredited philosophers,
    and you accept this as your gateway to Quality, you are simply stuck in
    time.

    When an idea causes you to think, or to consider a different view from one
    you would have is Dynamic Quality. This DQ comes from you; not the person
    you read. Pirsig's thoughts are most dynamic because they do not offer the
    'Ready-made', Hand-me-down' philosophy for you to swallow, and go out into
    the world and say "I know philosophy because Pirsig told me so."

    Pirsig's hand me down philosophy comes in the idea that " . . . any
    improvement in the world will come from making Quality decisions."

    If you do not know what Quality is, and expect someone else to tell you, how
    can you know that this particular someone else has a better idea that the
    someone elses that oppose the particular someone? Do you think it is
    possible to point towar Quality philosophy without first knowing what
    Quality is?

    I read your piece sometime back, and found it quite impressive. It just
    doesn't change my view, as it seems I have my own way of looking at things
    without pointing toward someone else's isms, ists, or ians.

    This does not mean I am right, and in fact, I feel it would be wiser to
    think of any thing I offer an 'Not' right. If it happens to fit a Quality
    you recognize, then maybe you could expand on it. If it doesn't, then why
    would you want to?

    Respectfully,

    Wolff

    >From: "Matt Kundert" <pirsigaffliction@hotmail.com>
    >Reply-To: moq_discuss@moq.org
    >To: moq_discuss@moq.org
    >Subject: RE: MD Further comments to Matt
    >Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 12:35:44 -0600
    >
    >Wolff,
    >
    >If experience is reality
    >
    >and reality is everything,
    >
    >then everything is experience.
    >
    >If Quality is experience
    >
    >and Quality is reality,
    >
    >then everything is Quality.
    >
    >All Pirsigian's agree to those syllogisms (or have yet to deny them to me).
    >
    >If everything is Quality, then why does someone telling you what Quality is
    >move you away from it? Isn't the "telling" Quality, too?
    >
    >As I asked at the end of "Philosophologology," "Why is the history of
    >philosophy bracketed off from the kinds of experiences that are the
    >legitimate concern of philosophy? Why is the experience of a book
    >relegated to a lower position than the experience of a hot dog?"
    >
    >Matt
    >
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