From: Ron Winchester (phaedruswolff@hotmail.com)
Date: Fri Jan 28 2005 - 00:34:11 GMT
Matt;
Once we dissolve the notion of a core self, as Pirsig seems to do, then if
your strip away our beliefs, our prejudices, there's nothing left to do any
learning. There's no Lockean blank slate waiting for new impressions. We
only move from old to new, not empty to full.
Hi Matt,
Maybe this is where you see I am disagreeing with you. Maybe it is the idea
I have that you do not learn from the teachers, be it philosophers or
professors anything that has not already been discovered, and quite possibly
outdated, as there is no research going into new scientific findings or new
philosophical beliefs.
As I feel most here would remember from their days of attending the
bricks-n-mortar universities a let down once you got out, and realized that
it was tired old stuff they were teaching. Exceptions to this might be
science, and specialties such as accounting. With science, you leave the
university far behind, but realize it is a catching up situation, and with
accounting, you know you must keep up with the new accounting laws.
Either way, I feel you would realize that what you learned in school or in
the church was well outdated, and suffered from lack of research by the
teachers to keep updated the materials you passed down to the next
generation.
Pirsig's view, though it can be compared with that of previous philsophers
to the point some claim to see enough of a connection to lead to accusations
of copying the philosophies of Kant and James (most recently that I have
witnessed), is fresh and from 'New eyes.'
What stripping away of the ego and culture means is forgetting altogether
the concep that there is a difference in mind and body; or that mind and
body are separate. Mind and body, mind and matter come from the same source;
a source Pirsig calls Quality. It is not that there was a body upon which
the mind was built separate of. There was no object that the body and mind
was built upon, but an advancement of the particles and waves that created
the object and subject together; not separate. The subject and object are
nothing but pointing tools toward that which has advanced our view from this
source. Subject and object are still this source. Everything is still this
source. The earthworm is in constant communication with the stars, and we
are simply a microcosm of this universe that created us, and continues to
create us. As with our biological so is our intellectual a constant circular
creation that is not separate, but a part of everything around us.
From our reason, we only aquire tools to point toward this circular creation
which we become an active member. When we think we are the creators of the
world around us as opposed to particiapants in the creation of the world
around us, we are bound by our egos. Our egos are built around our culture,
and for the US where I live this culture is of the Capitalist religion. Ask
any grade school teacher the answer the the same question asked
over-and-over from the grade school students; "Why do I need to learn this
stuff?" At least my experience has recognized a standard statement something
to the nature of "So you can get a diploma and get a good job and make lots
of money." It is so obvious, they can't understand why these kids just don't
get it.
Philosophology and Cristianity share a common belief; the belief that you
learn from the fathers of the church or the fathers of philosophy. If you
will look at the world around you, and the technological advancements, and
the shrinking of the world, and the acceptance of other races that were once
looked down on, then you must see we are advancing faster than any
generation that went before us, and must at least believe the next
generation to come will advance much faster than we could even conceive in
our tired old philosophy; in our limited knowledge.
If philosophy is constantly reinventing itself, then you do not keep up by
sticking with the philosophies of the past. In Pirsig's case the
philosophies that only understood the world around them in a SOM nature.
Do not think of this as a part of my thesis, as I realize I am only in an
elementary stage at even developing a thesis that is simply temporary. I
would also think that even though Pirsig's MOQ may be cutting edge, it is
only temporary, as new ideas will show that the MOQ is elementary to
understanding of the universe and our part in it.
As I have offered before, the same still holds true -- I am a know-nothing
gnome that couldn't have the vaguest idea what enlightenment not based from
fear of the unknown, and holding on to the idea that without all the
knowledge I have gained I would be nothing but a shell of biological
'Object' that is incapable of advancing because I have left behind
everything I felt sacred.
It is what I am leaving behind that is advancing me. It is this tired old
beliefs of the past that I let go of without fear that helps me advance to a
peaceful and free-mind that is capable of advancing; not only myself, but
society. It is these tired old beliefs that bring fear when someone
threatens them that creates oppositional views of those we do not understand
that keeps us from moving forward.
I tried, but I guess most of this would still be to general.
Ron
>From: "Matt Kundert" <pirsigaffliction@hotmail.com>
>Reply-To: moq_discuss@moq.org
>To: moq_discuss@moq.org
>Subject: RE: MD Them pesky pragmatists
>Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 12:12:49 -0600
>
>Ron,
>
>Despite your riposte that it is my fault for constructing the rhetorical
>situation that I would maintain you created (which is always a crafty
>move), I would simply like to say that I think your view of me is based on
>a misunderstanding. You asked before, "If I have said something you
>disagree with, I will be more than happy to discuss it," but this is the
>brunt of the problem. Everything you say is more or less agreeable--your
>impetus in saying it, however, is apparently born out of disagreeing with
>something I've said. But because you are saying things "in general," I
>have no idea what that might be.
>
>I've floundered about, trying to alleviate your fears of the picture I've
>painted, but I really don't know what specifically you disagree with, so I
>can't focus very well. I've never said I or anyone else must limit our
>"philosophy to the 'Norm' or 'Paradigm' of previously held beliefs." I
>would maintain that there's no other way to judge a belief except from your
>previously held beliefs (what would be doing the judging, after all?), but
>that doesn't exclude revolutionary philosophy that overturns previous
>paradigms of doing things. The only thing I see that might be where we
>disagree is the notion that we can strip off all of our beliefs, our
>"prejudices" as you call them, before we can learn. This is what
>Hans-Georg Gadamer called the Enlightenment's "prejudice prejudice." Once
>we dissolve the notion of a core self, as Pirsig seems to do, then if your
>strip away our beliefs, our prejudices, there's nothing left to do any
>learning. There's no Lockean blank slate waiting for new impressions. We
>only move from old to new, not empty to full.
>
>So I'm not sure what you're disagreeing with. When I do philosophy in the
>broad sense of wisdom for making my way around the world, I take insight
>wherever I may find it, be it reading Philosophy and the Mirror of Nature,
>The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, my experience with my ex-fiance, my
>sister, a baseball game, or church. It doesn't matter.
>
>Matt
>
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