From: Scott Roberts (jse885@localnet.com)
Date: Mon Jan 31 2005 - 03:13:43 GMT
DMB et al,
> dmb says:
> Pirsig's mysticism is descended from Plato and Plotinus, from the East,
from
> Native American mysticism, but not from the Modern Romantics.
Since Plato and Plotinus felt that the "way" was through the intellect to
Intellect, while the Romantics (and James) tended to disparage the
intellect, as Pirsig does (with respect to spiritual advancement), I wonder
how you can claim this.
[DMB from another post in this thread]
> But if the mystical experience is included
> as verifiable, empirical evidence, then we are most certainly expanding
the
> notion of empiricism. I've tried to explain this several times already
The point is that Matt and I don't buy this expansion. It is certainly the
business of a philosopher to shift the meanings of key words, but then the
marketplace (other thinkers' reactions) has to accept it. I don't buy it for
two reasons. The first is that it makes the old meaning of empiricism lose
value. With the old meaning, if I claim something, and someone else says "I
don't believe you", then I can say, "well, go look (or perform this
experiment)". With mystical experience, the "go look" becomes "go join a
monastery, sit in meditation for a few years, and maybe (there are no
guarantees), you will see for yourself". The difference is too big to be
covered by one word.
The second reason is, what if I forget to specify that they join a Zen
monastery, but instead join a Christian one, and they come back and say "You
were wrong, I didn't experience "no-thing-ness", I experienced Christ within
me.". That is, the variety and interpretation of mystical experience is very
wide. Is it empirically evident that we can speak to the spirits of the
dead, since Swedenborg (a mystic that Pirsig mentions) did? Why is only
"pure, undifferentiated experience" regarded as empirical and not life after
death, reincarnation, channeling, ESP, Heaven and Hell (Swedenborg says his
conversations happened in Heaven)? All this and more is reported by mystics,
with the claim that anyone can have these experiences.
- Scott
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