From: Ron Winchester (phaedruswolff@hotmail.com)
Date: Thu Feb 17 2005 - 20:03:10 GMT
Ian: IMHO the "aether" is due for a comeback.
(ie with minimal tweaking, adjusted for relativity, it's not a bad
metaphor
for that quantum soup, or chaotic void, whatever.)
Ron: . . or Quality, or Nothingness, or glue (Glucon Plasma)?
A word is a word is a word. Huh?
>From: "Ian Glendinning" <ian@psybertron.org>
>Reply-To: moq_discuss@moq.org
>To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
>Subject: Re: MD Pure experience and the Kantian problematic
>Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 18:08:08 -0000
>
>Ron,
>
>IMHO the "aether" is due for a comeback.
>(ie with minimal tweaking, adjusted for relativity, it's not a bad metaphor
>for that quantum soup, or chaotic void, whatever.)
>
>Ian
>----- Original Message ----- From: "Ron Winchester"
><phaedruswolff@hotmail.com>
>To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
>Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 1:16 AM
>Subject: Re: MD Pure experience and the Kantian problematic
>
>
>>Ron shows his ignorance;
>>"The nothingness that we don't understand was proven by Quantum Physics"
>>
>>Scott;
>>While I think your use of the word "proven" is a gross overstatement, I
>>think there is some relation with mystical talk on nothingness and quantum
>>physics, but I'd like you to expand on how you see it.
>>
>>Hi Scott,
>>
>>The word 'Proven' is a gross overstatement, and should be excluded from
>>philosophical language. :o)
>>
>>That was a slip on my part. I should never have said proven.
>>
>>As I see it, the nothingness of non-deity Zen is the same as the void,
>>nothingness, or 'Quantum Soup.' It is all theory, and as like every theory
>>we have had prior, such as Aether have been 'Reconsidered' (as opposed to
>>disproven:)
>>
>>The only compliment of Quantum Physics to Nothingness of Zen is that both
>>Quantum Physics and Zen have realized that they do not 'Know' what this
>>nothingness consists of. Any knowledge we have is temporary. All we think
>>we know is that everything came from this Nothingness for lack of a word
>>because it cannot be described.
>>
>>Let's just say that Quantum Physics leads us to think a bit closer toward
>>Eastern philosophy, or what can be termed as spirituality.
>>
>>On empirical and SOM, and the MOQ being stuck on SOM in its use of the
>>word empirical, is that I see you accepting, or being confused that a
>>Mystic Experience is something other than enlightenment as to how the
>>world is, that does not come from some 'Out There' field or force.
>>
>>The difference between enlightenment and the Christian Mystical Experience
>>is that you know prior to the experience what you are going to experience
>>when you are looking for the Virgin Mary. An Enlightened Mystical
>>Experience is something that comes to you from what I would call 'Within.'
>>
>>I have been warned about using the term intuition, but I am thinking we
>>already have within us the knowledge, but just do not see it as we are
>>preconditioned to a belief system that was built into us from childhood
>>on. The mystical experience in Eastern spirituality comes from separating
>>ourselves from our prejudices as to what we "Think we know.' Quantum
>>Physics lend to this in the 'Knower and the Known' that you mentioned
>>before are the same. Eastern spirituality does not tell us what to look
>>for in a mystical experience. Quantum Soup is simply an extenstion to the
>>idea that this nothingness can not be known; it has no characteristics
>>that we can understand.
>>
>>('Quantum Soup' is just slang thrown at the physicists for their lack of
>>ability to accept something that cannot be proven)
>>
>>Thinking of Quantum Soup brings me to some thoughts about 'Emprical Data.'
>>It seems to me that in most fields, the use of the term 'Empirical Data'
>>is more of an insult thrown toward the Empiricists, or those who depend
>>too much on what is considered emprical data.
>>
>>Ron
>>
>>>From: "Scott Roberts" <jse885@localnet.com>
>>>Reply-To: moq_discuss@moq.org
>>>To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
>>>Subject: Re: MD Pure experience and the Kantian problematic
>>>Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 12:21:47 -0700
>>>
>>>Ron,
>>>
>>>Ron said: This is where I see the difficulty Scott is having with
>>>empiricism.
>>>
>>>Scott:
>>>You see wrong. Like DMB, you take what I say and then add humongous
>>>assumptions to what I say and argue on the basis of those erroneous
>>>assumptions. I then have to spend a ridiculous amount saying "that's not
>>>what I said". Somehow, you have interpreted my objecting to Pirsig's
>>>expansion of the word 'empiricism' to the belief that I think that
>>>changing
>>>the usage of all words is a bad thing. In my first post about this
>>>subject I
>>>explicitly denied that.
>>>
>>>You have some notion of what I think about mystical events, but I'm not
>>>even
>>>sure what it is. Do you think that I think that all mystical events are
>>>equally valid or invalid? That a vision of the Virgin Mary should be
>>>treated
>>>the same as Zen satori? I do not.
>>>
>>>You seem to think that I am stuck in SOM prejudices. I think the MOQ is
>>>stuck in SOM prejudices, for example, in calling itself "empirical". If
>>>we
>>>are going to debate this you have got to resist your tendency to go off
>>>on
>>>big rambles based on wrong assumptions about what I think. If you're not
>>>sure what I think, then ask, and I will clarify as well as I can.
>>>
>>>Meanwhile, I am curious about this sentence:
>>>
>>>"The nothingness that we don't understand was proven by Quantum Physics"
>>>
>>>While I think your use of the word "proven" is a gross overstatement, I
>>>think there is some relation with mystical talk on nothingness and
>>>quantum
>>>physics, but I'd like you to expand on how you see it.
>>>
>>>- Scott
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>>
>>
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