From: Ian Glendinning (ian@psybertron.org)
Date: Fri Feb 18 2005 - 09:47:06 GMT
Ron,
Absolutely !
Ian
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ron Winchester" <phaedruswolff@hotmail.com>
To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 8:03 PM
Subject: Re: MD Pure experience and the Kantian problematic
> Ian: IMHO the "aether" is due for a comeback.
> (ie with minimal tweaking, adjusted for relativity, it's not a bad
> metaphor
> for that quantum soup, or chaotic void, whatever.)
>
> Ron: . . or Quality, or Nothingness, or glue (Glucon Plasma)?
>
> A word is a word is a word. Huh?
>
>
>>From: "Ian Glendinning" <ian@psybertron.org>
>>Reply-To: moq_discuss@moq.org
>>To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
>>Subject: Re: MD Pure experience and the Kantian problematic
>>Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 18:08:08 -0000
>>
>>Ron,
>>
>>IMHO the "aether" is due for a comeback.
>>(ie with minimal tweaking, adjusted for relativity, it's not a bad
>>metaphor for that quantum soup, or chaotic void, whatever.)
>>
>>Ian
>>----- Original Message ----- From: "Ron Winchester"
>><phaedruswolff@hotmail.com>
>>To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
>>Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 1:16 AM
>>Subject: Re: MD Pure experience and the Kantian problematic
>>
>>
>>>Ron shows his ignorance;
>>>"The nothingness that we don't understand was proven by Quantum Physics"
>>>
>>>Scott;
>>>While I think your use of the word "proven" is a gross overstatement, I
>>>think there is some relation with mystical talk on nothingness and
>>>quantum
>>>physics, but I'd like you to expand on how you see it.
>>>
>>>Hi Scott,
>>>
>>>The word 'Proven' is a gross overstatement, and should be excluded from
>>>philosophical language. :o)
>>>
>>>That was a slip on my part. I should never have said proven.
>>>
>>>As I see it, the nothingness of non-deity Zen is the same as the void,
>>>nothingness, or 'Quantum Soup.' It is all theory, and as like every
>>>theory we have had prior, such as Aether have been 'Reconsidered' (as
>>>opposed to disproven:)
>>>
>>>The only compliment of Quantum Physics to Nothingness of Zen is that both
>>>Quantum Physics and Zen have realized that they do not 'Know' what this
>>>nothingness consists of. Any knowledge we have is temporary. All we think
>>>we know is that everything came from this Nothingness for lack of a word
>>>because it cannot be described.
>>>
>>>Let's just say that Quantum Physics leads us to think a bit closer toward
>>>Eastern philosophy, or what can be termed as spirituality.
>>>
>>>On empirical and SOM, and the MOQ being stuck on SOM in its use of the
>>>word empirical, is that I see you accepting, or being confused that a
>>>Mystic Experience is something other than enlightenment as to how the
>>>world is, that does not come from some 'Out There' field or force.
>>>
>>>The difference between enlightenment and the Christian Mystical
>>>Experience is that you know prior to the experience what you are going to
>>>experience when you are looking for the Virgin Mary. An Enlightened
>>>Mystical Experience is something that comes to you from what I would call
>>>'Within.'
>>>
>>>I have been warned about using the term intuition, but I am thinking we
>>>already have within us the knowledge, but just do not see it as we are
>>>preconditioned to a belief system that was built into us from childhood
>>>on. The mystical experience in Eastern spirituality comes from separating
>>>ourselves from our prejudices as to what we "Think we know.' Quantum
>>>Physics lend to this in the 'Knower and the Known' that you mentioned
>>>before are the same. Eastern spirituality does not tell us what to look
>>>for in a mystical experience. Quantum Soup is simply an extenstion to the
>>>idea that this nothingness can not be known; it has no characteristics
>>>that we can understand.
>>>
>>>('Quantum Soup' is just slang thrown at the physicists for their lack of
>>>ability to accept something that cannot be proven)
>>>
>>>Thinking of Quantum Soup brings me to some thoughts about 'Emprical
>>>Data.' It seems to me that in most fields, the use of the term 'Empirical
>>>Data' is more of an insult thrown toward the Empiricists, or those who
>>>depend too much on what is considered emprical data.
>>>
>>>Ron
>>>
>>>>From: "Scott Roberts" <jse885@localnet.com>
>>>>Reply-To: moq_discuss@moq.org
>>>>To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
>>>>Subject: Re: MD Pure experience and the Kantian problematic
>>>>Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 12:21:47 -0700
>>>>
>>>>Ron,
>>>>
>>>>Ron said: This is where I see the difficulty Scott is having with
>>>>empiricism.
>>>>
>>>>Scott:
>>>>You see wrong. Like DMB, you take what I say and then add humongous
>>>>assumptions to what I say and argue on the basis of those erroneous
>>>>assumptions. I then have to spend a ridiculous amount saying "that's not
>>>>what I said". Somehow, you have interpreted my objecting to Pirsig's
>>>>expansion of the word 'empiricism' to the belief that I think that
>>>>changing
>>>>the usage of all words is a bad thing. In my first post about this
>>>>subject I
>>>>explicitly denied that.
>>>>
>>>>You have some notion of what I think about mystical events, but I'm not
>>>>even
>>>>sure what it is. Do you think that I think that all mystical events are
>>>>equally valid or invalid? That a vision of the Virgin Mary should be
>>>>treated
>>>>the same as Zen satori? I do not.
>>>>
>>>>You seem to think that I am stuck in SOM prejudices. I think the MOQ is
>>>>stuck in SOM prejudices, for example, in calling itself "empirical". If
>>>>we
>>>>are going to debate this you have got to resist your tendency to go off
>>>>on
>>>>big rambles based on wrong assumptions about what I think. If you're not
>>>>sure what I think, then ask, and I will clarify as well as I can.
>>>>
>>>>Meanwhile, I am curious about this sentence:
>>>>
>>>>"The nothingness that we don't understand was proven by Quantum Physics"
>>>>
>>>>While I think your use of the word "proven" is a gross overstatement, I
>>>>think there is some relation with mystical talk on nothingness and
>>>>quantum
>>>>physics, but I'd like you to expand on how you see it.
>>>>
>>>>- Scott
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>>
>>>
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>>>
>>>
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>>
>>
>>
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>
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