From: Ian Glendinning (ian@psybertron.org)
Date: Fri Feb 18 2005 - 10:09:22 GMT
Ron, I lose the thread here, but when you say ...
"Let's just say that Quantum Physics leads us to think a bit closer toward
Eastern philosophy, or what can be termed as spirituality ... I don't see
religion and spirituality meaning the same thing."
I completely identify with your view. It was Michael Talbot's "Mysticism and
the New Physics", contemporary with but better than Capra's "Tao of
Physics", that made me think I should read Pirsig in fact, and I've not been
disappointed since.
Ian.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ron Winchester" <phaedruswolff@hotmail.com>
To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 8:12 PM
Subject: Re: MD Pure experience and the Kantian problematic
> Scott:
> I disagree. We know a lot about subatomic activity. What we cannot do is
> visualize it. But the mathematics does allow us to make predictions. Of
> course the theory may be overthrown and replaced by another, but the
> predictive ability we have will not go away, same with relativity
> replacing Newton. NASA still uses Newtonian physics to direct its
> spacecraft.
>
> Hi Scott,
>
> The thing is, we can't predict the movements of electrons. It is more a
> shell game we are playing with the subatomic particles and waves.
>
> Ron said:
> Let's just say that Quantum Physics leads us to think a bit closer
> toward Eastern philosophy, or what can be termed as spirituality.
>
> Scott:
> I agree, but there are many books out there which disagree, so this
> statement can be questioned. Is it a case, for example, that we have
> read spiritual meanings into QM only because we are inclined to do so
> because of prior leanings toward the spiritual? (Also, there is plenty
> of spirituality in Western philosophy as well.)
>
> Ron:
> I don't see religion and spirituality meaning the same thing.
>
> Ron said:
> The difference between enlightenment and the Christian Mystical
> Experience is that you know prior to the experience what you are going
> to experience when you are looking for the Virgin Mary. An Enlightened
> Mystical Experience is something that comes to you from what I would
> call 'Within.'
>
> Scott:
> I would say that saying "Enlightened Mystical Experience is something
> that comes to you from what I would call 'Within.'" is just as
> misleading as saying it comes from 'without'. In both cases there is a
> SOM presupposition: that something gets experienced, for example,
> knowledge of "how the world is".
>
> Ron:
> This knowledge simply does not depend on anyone or anything besides
> yourself.
>
> Scott continues;
> I also question your characterization of "Christian Mystical Experience"
> as if it were all visions. Eckhart, the author of the Cloud of
> Unknowing, and the contemporary mystic Bernadette Roberts are all
> counter-examples. And of course, visions occur in all other traditions
> as well.
>
> Ron:
> Bernadette Roberts does not stick to the 'Christian' mystical
> experience. If you are speaking in terms of Christianity evolving, I do
> believe it will, but hasn't yet to accept this idea of 'No-Self'.
>
> Would you not agree?
>
> Ron said:
> Thinking of Quantum Soup brings me to some thoughts about 'Emprical Data.'
> It seems to me that in most fields, the use of the term 'Empirical Data'
> is
> more of an insult thrown toward the Empiricists, or those who depend too
> much on what is considered emprical data.
>
> Scott:
> I'm not at all clear on who you think is using 'Empirical Data' as an
> insult. Could you give an example?
>
> Ron;
> I'll save this Scott, and see what I can do about finding some examples.
>
> It is mainly in the finance and science journals.
>
>>From: "Scott Roberts" <jse885@localnet.com>
>>Reply-To: moq_discuss@moq.org
>>To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
>>Subject: Re: MD Pure experience and the Kantian problematic
>>Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 11:58:58 -0700
>>
>>Ron,
>>
>>Ron said:
>>The word 'Proven' is a gross overstatement, and should be excluded from
>>philosophical language. :o)
>>
>>Scott:
>>I agree. Proof only works in mathematics.
>>
>>As I see it, the nothingness of non-deity Zen is the same as the void,
>>nothingness, or 'Quantum Soup.' It is all theory, and as like every theory
>>we have had prior, such as Aether have been 'Reconsidered' (as opposed to
>>disproven:)
>>
>>The only compliment of Quantum Physics to Nothingness of Zen is that both
>>Quantum Physics and Zen have realized that they do not 'Know' what this
>>nothingness consists of. Any knowledge we have is temporary. All we think
>>we
>>know is that everything came from this Nothingness for lack of a word
>>because it cannot be described.
>>
>>Scott:
>>I disagree. We know a lot about subatomic activity. What we cannot do is
>>visualize it. But the mathematics does allow us to make predictions. Of
>>course the theory may be overthrown and replaced by another, but the
>>predictive ability we have will not go away, same with relativity
>>replacing
>>Newton. NASA still uses Newtonian physics to direct its spacecraft.
>>
>>Ron said:
>>Let's just say that Quantum Physics leads us to think a bit closer toward
>>Eastern philosophy, or what can be termed as spirituality.
>>
>>Scott:
>>I agree, but there are many books out there which disagree, so this
>>statement can be questioned. Is it a case, for example, that we have read
>>spiritual meanings into QM only because we are inclined to do so because
>>of
>>prior leanings toward the spiritual? (Also, there is plenty of
>>spirituality
>>in Western philosophy as well.)
>>
>>Ron said:
>>On empirical and SOM, and the MOQ being stuck on SOM in its use of the
>>word
>>empirical, is that I see you accepting, or being confused that a Mystic
>>Experience is something other than enlightenment as to how the world is,
>>that does not come from some 'Out There' field or force.
>>
>>Scott:
>>I think both characterizations of mysticism given here are misleading, and
>>subscribe to neither.
>>
>>Ron said:
>>The difference between enlightenment and the Christian Mystical Experience
>>is that you know prior to the experience what you are going to experience
>>when you are looking for the Virgin Mary. An Enlightened Mystical
>>Experience
>>is something that comes to you from what I would call 'Within.'
>>
>>Scott:
>>I would say that saying "Enlightened Mystical Experience is something that
>>comes to you from what I would call 'Within.'" is just as misleading as
>>saying it comes from 'without'. In both cases there is a SOM
>>presupposition:
>>that something gets experienced, for example, knowledge of "how the world
>>is".
>>
>>I also question your characterization of "Christian Mystical Experience"
>>as
>>if it were all visions. Eckhart, the author of the Cloud of Unknowing, and
>>the contemporary mystic Bernadette Roberts are all counter-examples. And
>>of
>>course, visions occur in all other traditions as well.
>>
>>Ron said:
>>Thinking of Quantum Soup brings me to some thoughts about 'Emprical Data.'
>>It seems to me that in most fields, the use of the term 'Empirical Data'
>>is
>>more of an insult thrown toward the Empiricists, or those who depend too
>>much on what is considered emprical data.
>>
>>Scott:
>>I'm not at all clear on who you think is using 'Empirical Data' as an
>>insult. Could you give an example?
>>
>>- Scott
>>
>>
>>
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