From: Ron Winchester (phaedruswolff@hotmail.com)
Date: Sat Feb 19 2005 - 02:09:25 GMT
Hi Ian,
I was just trying to decide what I might like to read next. Would you
recommend Talbot's "Mysticism and the New Physics"?
-Ron
>From: "Ian Glendinning" <ian@psybertron.org>
>Reply-To: moq_discuss@moq.org
>To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
>Subject: Re: MD Pure experience and the Kantian problematic
>Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 10:09:22 -0000
>
>Ron, I lose the thread here, but when you say ...
>
>"Let's just say that Quantum Physics leads us to think a bit closer toward
>Eastern philosophy, or what can be termed as spirituality ... I don't see
>religion and spirituality meaning the same thing."
>
>I completely identify with your view. It was Michael Talbot's "Mysticism
>and the New Physics", contemporary with but better than Capra's "Tao of
>Physics", that made me think I should read Pirsig in fact, and I've not
>been disappointed since.
>
>Ian.
>----- Original Message ----- From: "Ron Winchester"
><phaedruswolff@hotmail.com>
>To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
>Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 8:12 PM
>Subject: Re: MD Pure experience and the Kantian problematic
>
>
>>Scott:
>>I disagree. We know a lot about subatomic activity. What we cannot do is
>>visualize it. But the mathematics does allow us to make predictions. Of
>>course the theory may be overthrown and replaced by another, but the
>>predictive ability we have will not go away, same with relativity
>>replacing Newton. NASA still uses Newtonian physics to direct its
>>spacecraft.
>>
>>Hi Scott,
>>
>>The thing is, we can't predict the movements of electrons. It is more a
>>shell game we are playing with the subatomic particles and waves.
>>
>>Ron said:
>>Let's just say that Quantum Physics leads us to think a bit closer
>>toward Eastern philosophy, or what can be termed as spirituality.
>>
>>Scott:
>>I agree, but there are many books out there which disagree, so this
>>statement can be questioned. Is it a case, for example, that we have
>>read spiritual meanings into QM only because we are inclined to do so
>>because of prior leanings toward the spiritual? (Also, there is plenty
>>of spirituality in Western philosophy as well.)
>>
>>Ron:
>>I don't see religion and spirituality meaning the same thing.
>>
>>Ron said:
>>The difference between enlightenment and the Christian Mystical
>>Experience is that you know prior to the experience what you are going
>>to experience when you are looking for the Virgin Mary. An Enlightened
>>Mystical Experience is something that comes to you from what I would
>>call 'Within.'
>>
>>Scott:
>>I would say that saying "Enlightened Mystical Experience is something
>>that comes to you from what I would call 'Within.'" is just as
>>misleading as saying it comes from 'without'. In both cases there is a
>>SOM presupposition: that something gets experienced, for example,
>>knowledge of "how the world is".
>>
>>Ron:
>>This knowledge simply does not depend on anyone or anything besides
>>yourself.
>>
>>Scott continues;
>>I also question your characterization of "Christian Mystical Experience"
>>as if it were all visions. Eckhart, the author of the Cloud of
>>Unknowing, and the contemporary mystic Bernadette Roberts are all
>>counter-examples. And of course, visions occur in all other traditions
>>as well.
>>
>>Ron:
>>Bernadette Roberts does not stick to the 'Christian' mystical
>>experience. If you are speaking in terms of Christianity evolving, I do
>>believe it will, but hasn't yet to accept this idea of 'No-Self'.
>>
>>Would you not agree?
>>
>>Ron said:
>>Thinking of Quantum Soup brings me to some thoughts about 'Emprical Data.'
>>It seems to me that in most fields, the use of the term 'Empirical Data'
>>is
>>more of an insult thrown toward the Empiricists, or those who depend too
>>much on what is considered emprical data.
>>
>>Scott:
>>I'm not at all clear on who you think is using 'Empirical Data' as an
>>insult. Could you give an example?
>>
>>Ron;
>>I'll save this Scott, and see what I can do about finding some examples.
>>
>>It is mainly in the finance and science journals.
>>
>>>From: "Scott Roberts" <jse885@localnet.com>
>>>Reply-To: moq_discuss@moq.org
>>>To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
>>>Subject: Re: MD Pure experience and the Kantian problematic
>>>Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 11:58:58 -0700
>>>
>>>Ron,
>>>
>>>Ron said:
>>>The word 'Proven' is a gross overstatement, and should be excluded from
>>>philosophical language. :o)
>>>
>>>Scott:
>>>I agree. Proof only works in mathematics.
>>>
>>>As I see it, the nothingness of non-deity Zen is the same as the void,
>>>nothingness, or 'Quantum Soup.' It is all theory, and as like every
>>>theory
>>>we have had prior, such as Aether have been 'Reconsidered' (as opposed to
>>>disproven:)
>>>
>>>The only compliment of Quantum Physics to Nothingness of Zen is that both
>>>Quantum Physics and Zen have realized that they do not 'Know' what this
>>>nothingness consists of. Any knowledge we have is temporary. All we think
>>>we
>>>know is that everything came from this Nothingness for lack of a word
>>>because it cannot be described.
>>>
>>>Scott:
>>>I disagree. We know a lot about subatomic activity. What we cannot do is
>>>visualize it. But the mathematics does allow us to make predictions. Of
>>>course the theory may be overthrown and replaced by another, but the
>>>predictive ability we have will not go away, same with relativity
>>>replacing
>>>Newton. NASA still uses Newtonian physics to direct its spacecraft.
>>>
>>>Ron said:
>>>Let's just say that Quantum Physics leads us to think a bit closer toward
>>>Eastern philosophy, or what can be termed as spirituality.
>>>
>>>Scott:
>>>I agree, but there are many books out there which disagree, so this
>>>statement can be questioned. Is it a case, for example, that we have read
>>>spiritual meanings into QM only because we are inclined to do so because
>>>of
>>>prior leanings toward the spiritual? (Also, there is plenty of
>>>spirituality
>>>in Western philosophy as well.)
>>>
>>>Ron said:
>>>On empirical and SOM, and the MOQ being stuck on SOM in its use of the
>>>word
>>>empirical, is that I see you accepting, or being confused that a Mystic
>>>Experience is something other than enlightenment as to how the world is,
>>>that does not come from some 'Out There' field or force.
>>>
>>>Scott:
>>>I think both characterizations of mysticism given here are misleading,
>>>and
>>>subscribe to neither.
>>>
>>>Ron said:
>>>The difference between enlightenment and the Christian Mystical
>>>Experience
>>>is that you know prior to the experience what you are going to experience
>>>when you are looking for the Virgin Mary. An Enlightened Mystical
>>>Experience
>>>is something that comes to you from what I would call 'Within.'
>>>
>>>Scott:
>>>I would say that saying "Enlightened Mystical Experience is something
>>>that
>>>comes to you from what I would call 'Within.'" is just as misleading as
>>>saying it comes from 'without'. In both cases there is a SOM
>>>presupposition:
>>>that something gets experienced, for example, knowledge of "how the world
>>>is".
>>>
>>>I also question your characterization of "Christian Mystical Experience"
>>>as
>>>if it were all visions. Eckhart, the author of the Cloud of Unknowing,
>>>and
>>>the contemporary mystic Bernadette Roberts are all counter-examples. And
>>>of
>>>course, visions occur in all other traditions as well.
>>>
>>>Ron said:
>>>Thinking of Quantum Soup brings me to some thoughts about 'Emprical
>>>Data.'
>>>It seems to me that in most fields, the use of the term 'Empirical Data'
>>>is
>>>more of an insult thrown toward the Empiricists, or those who depend too
>>>much on what is considered emprical data.
>>>
>>>Scott:
>>>I'm not at all clear on who you think is using 'Empirical Data' as an
>>>insult. Could you give an example?
>>>
>>>- Scott
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>MOQ.ORG - http://www.moq.org
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