MD Static and dynamic aspects of mysticism and religious experience

From: Sam Norton (elizaphanian@kohath.wanadoo.co.uk)
Date: Mon Feb 21 2005 - 13:10:19 GMT

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    Hi Wim,

    An overdue reply.
    > <snip>
    >> So, yes, for me as a Quaker DQ is highest in the hierarchy of my values,
    >> followed by immediate recognition (as we discussed before) that DQ can
    >> only
    >> be experienced relative to old sq and requires constant creation of new
    >> sq.
    >> They're a 'contradictory identity' in Scott/Nishida's wording.

    I think we agree on this.

    >> You continued with the statement that an Anglican academic theological
    >> education qualifies you for 'Knowing what "christian mysticism" is'.
    >> So, can you tell me by know whether Quakerism qualifies as 'christian
    >> mysticism'?

    I would say that there is family resemblance rather than identity. Standard
    Christian mysticism would be much more focussed on Jesus and the sacraments
    (as with, eg, Eckhart or Julian) than seems to be the case with the Quaker
    approach. On the other hand, it's a basic axiom that all of the language
    fails to capture the divine, and that all of those static patterns are
    ultimately left behind (_not_ rejected) - and so far as I understand it,
    Quaker mysticism corresponds to that fairly 'high level' approach.

    >> The problem lies -I think- in metaphors for 'truth' as fixed points. DQ
    >> is
    >> an ever elusive lure, as we already agreed.

    Yes. I suspect I am prone to make 'truth' into something more fixed than it
    ought to be.

    >> You continued with:
    >> 'I took ["Theologia Deum docet, a Deo docetur, ad Deum ducit"] to be
    >> supporting my point that the way of theology is prayer, and the source
    >> and
    >> terminus of theology is the enjoyment of God.'
    >> Fine, but does that define theology enough to be able to answer my
    >> question:
    >> 'Does it exclude the instructional aspect, the movement of DQ to sq in
    >> passing on religious experience that I object to?'
    >> In the experience of Quakers praying (seeking divine guidance) doesn't
    >> lead
    >> one to instruct others in the sense of replacing their own sense for DQ
    >> with
    >> sq instructions from us. If praying leads (led) you to become a hireling
    >> minister who DOES feel it as his task to present others with traditional
    >> sq
    >> BEFORE they are stimulated to use their own sense for DQ, we MAY still be
    >> using theology in different senses.

    I don't see theology as excluding the instructional aspect. I think there is
    an ambiguity about 'instruction' - it is possible to instruct through
    question and suggestion, leaving the seeker the final decision; it is also
    possible to instruct by saying 'this is how it is, take it or leave it'. I
    think of instruction primarily as the former; much of your criticism seems
    to assume that it is the latter. I think the whole point is to stimulate a
    person' awareness of DQ (cultiving the practice of the presence of God).

    >> You continued with:
    >> 'I think we're agreed on [our understanding of tradition and that "Future
    >> truth (DQ) can never be contained by past truth (tradition/sq)"]. We
    >> somehow
    >> just keep butting our heads together on it. Don't quite know why - maybe
    >> temperament?'
    >>
    >> Maybe the 'contradictory identity' of the DQ and sq in each of us and
    >> projecting the contradiction outside of us rather than recognizing it in
    >> ourselves? My head doesn't hurt. Like you I like these discussions a lot.
    >> They do help me to get more practised in Scott/Nishida's 'logic of
    >> contradictory identity' and to get to know you better.

    I am glad that your head doesn't hurt. I do like the discussions, and it is
    good to make progress in a conversation, which can now resume, real world
    constraints permitting.

    Two Quakers have joined my congregation (fully fledged Quakers this time).
    One said "I am first a pilgrim, second a Christian, third a Quaker". I liked
    that a lot (with an obvious final substitution, of course).

    Cheers
    Sam

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