Re: MD Pure experience and the Kantian problematic

From: Ron Winchester (phaedruswolff@hotmail.com)
Date: Mon Feb 21 2005 - 23:36:23 GMT

  • Next message: Matt Kundert: "MD Philosophy and Metaphysics"

    Hi Ian,

    I just wanted to take the time to say thanks for the suggested reading.
    Sorry for the late reply, but I am working on some investment letters for
    work.

    Ron

    >From: "Ian Glendinning" <ian@psybertron.org>
    >Reply-To: moq_discuss@moq.org
    >To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
    >Subject: Re: MD Pure experience and the Kantian problematic
    >Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 22:03:36 -0000
    >
    >Ron,
    >Yes, I would recommend it.
    >For anyone who's read Fritjof Capra's Tao of Physics, it covers much of the
    >same ground, but I think it's a better read.
    >Ian
    >
    >----- Original Message ----- From: "Ron Winchester"
    ><phaedruswolff@hotmail.com>
    >To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
    >Sent: Saturday, February 19, 2005 2:09 AM
    >Subject: Re: MD Pure experience and the Kantian problematic
    >
    >
    >>Hi Ian,
    >>
    >>I was just trying to decide what I might like to read next. Would you
    >>recommend Talbot's "Mysticism and the New Physics"?
    >>
    >>-Ron
    >>
    >>>From: "Ian Glendinning" <ian@psybertron.org>
    >>>Reply-To: moq_discuss@moq.org
    >>>To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
    >>>Subject: Re: MD Pure experience and the Kantian problematic
    >>>Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 10:09:22 -0000
    >>>
    >>>Ron, I lose the thread here, but when you say ...
    >>>
    >>>"Let's just say that Quantum Physics leads us to think a bit closer
    >>>toward Eastern philosophy, or what can be termed as spirituality ... I
    >>>don't see religion and spirituality meaning the same thing."
    >>>
    >>>I completely identify with your view. It was Michael Talbot's "Mysticism
    >>>and the New Physics", contemporary with but better than Capra's "Tao of
    >>>Physics", that made me think I should read Pirsig in fact, and I've not
    >>>been disappointed since.
    >>>
    >>>Ian.
    >>>----- Original Message ----- From: "Ron Winchester"
    >>><phaedruswolff@hotmail.com>
    >>>To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
    >>>Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 8:12 PM
    >>>Subject: Re: MD Pure experience and the Kantian problematic
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>>Scott:
    >>>>I disagree. We know a lot about subatomic activity. What we cannot do is
    >>>>visualize it. But the mathematics does allow us to make predictions. Of
    >>>>course the theory may be overthrown and replaced by another, but the
    >>>>predictive ability we have will not go away, same with relativity
    >>>>replacing Newton. NASA still uses Newtonian physics to direct its
    >>>>spacecraft.
    >>>>
    >>>>Hi Scott,
    >>>>
    >>>>The thing is, we can't predict the movements of electrons. It is more a
    >>>>shell game we are playing with the subatomic particles and waves.
    >>>>
    >>>>Ron said:
    >>>>Let's just say that Quantum Physics leads us to think a bit closer
    >>>>toward Eastern philosophy, or what can be termed as spirituality.
    >>>>
    >>>>Scott:
    >>>>I agree, but there are many books out there which disagree, so this
    >>>>statement can be questioned. Is it a case, for example, that we have
    >>>>read spiritual meanings into QM only because we are inclined to do so
    >>>>because of prior leanings toward the spiritual? (Also, there is plenty
    >>>>of spirituality in Western philosophy as well.)
    >>>>
    >>>>Ron:
    >>>>I don't see religion and spirituality meaning the same thing.
    >>>>
    >>>>Ron said:
    >>>>The difference between enlightenment and the Christian Mystical
    >>>>Experience is that you know prior to the experience what you are going
    >>>>to experience when you are looking for the Virgin Mary. An Enlightened
    >>>>Mystical Experience is something that comes to you from what I would
    >>>>call 'Within.'
    >>>>
    >>>>Scott:
    >>>>I would say that saying "Enlightened Mystical Experience is something
    >>>>that comes to you from what I would call 'Within.'" is just as
    >>>>misleading as saying it comes from 'without'. In both cases there is a
    >>>>SOM presupposition: that something gets experienced, for example,
    >>>>knowledge of "how the world is".
    >>>>
    >>>>Ron:
    >>>>This knowledge simply does not depend on anyone or anything besides
    >>>>yourself.
    >>>>
    >>>>Scott continues;
    >>>>I also question your characterization of "Christian Mystical Experience"
    >>>>as if it were all visions. Eckhart, the author of the Cloud of
    >>>>Unknowing, and the contemporary mystic Bernadette Roberts are all
    >>>>counter-examples. And of course, visions occur in all other traditions
    >>>>as well.
    >>>>
    >>>>Ron:
    >>>>Bernadette Roberts does not stick to the 'Christian' mystical
    >>>>experience. If you are speaking in terms of Christianity evolving, I do
    >>>>believe it will, but hasn't yet to accept this idea of 'No-Self'.
    >>>>
    >>>>Would you not agree?
    >>>>
    >>>>Ron said:
    >>>>Thinking of Quantum Soup brings me to some thoughts about 'Emprical
    >>>>Data.'
    >>>>It seems to me that in most fields, the use of the term 'Empirical Data'
    >>>>is
    >>>>more of an insult thrown toward the Empiricists, or those who depend too
    >>>>much on what is considered emprical data.
    >>>>
    >>>>Scott:
    >>>>I'm not at all clear on who you think is using 'Empirical Data' as an
    >>>>insult. Could you give an example?
    >>>>
    >>>>Ron;
    >>>>I'll save this Scott, and see what I can do about finding some examples.
    >>>>
    >>>>It is mainly in the finance and science journals.
    >>>>
    >>>>>From: "Scott Roberts" <jse885@localnet.com>
    >>>>>Reply-To: moq_discuss@moq.org
    >>>>>To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
    >>>>>Subject: Re: MD Pure experience and the Kantian problematic
    >>>>>Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 11:58:58 -0700
    >>>>>
    >>>>>Ron,
    >>>>>
    >>>>>Ron said:
    >>>>>The word 'Proven' is a gross overstatement, and should be excluded from
    >>>>>philosophical language. :o)
    >>>>>
    >>>>>Scott:
    >>>>>I agree. Proof only works in mathematics.
    >>>>>
    >>>>>As I see it, the nothingness of non-deity Zen is the same as the void,
    >>>>>nothingness, or 'Quantum Soup.' It is all theory, and as like every
    >>>>>theory
    >>>>>we have had prior, such as Aether have been 'Reconsidered' (as opposed
    >>>>>to
    >>>>>disproven:)
    >>>>>
    >>>>>The only compliment of Quantum Physics to Nothingness of Zen is that
    >>>>>both
    >>>>>Quantum Physics and Zen have realized that they do not 'Know' what this
    >>>>>nothingness consists of. Any knowledge we have is temporary. All we
    >>>>>think we
    >>>>>know is that everything came from this Nothingness for lack of a word
    >>>>>because it cannot be described.
    >>>>>
    >>>>>Scott:
    >>>>>I disagree. We know a lot about subatomic activity. What we cannot do
    >>>>>is
    >>>>>visualize it. But the mathematics does allow us to make predictions. Of
    >>>>>course the theory may be overthrown and replaced by another, but the
    >>>>>predictive ability we have will not go away, same with relativity
    >>>>>replacing
    >>>>>Newton. NASA still uses Newtonian physics to direct its spacecraft.
    >>>>>
    >>>>>Ron said:
    >>>>>Let's just say that Quantum Physics leads us to think a bit closer
    >>>>>toward
    >>>>>Eastern philosophy, or what can be termed as spirituality.
    >>>>>
    >>>>>Scott:
    >>>>>I agree, but there are many books out there which disagree, so this
    >>>>>statement can be questioned. Is it a case, for example, that we have
    >>>>>read
    >>>>>spiritual meanings into QM only because we are inclined to do so
    >>>>>because of
    >>>>>prior leanings toward the spiritual? (Also, there is plenty of
    >>>>>spirituality
    >>>>>in Western philosophy as well.)
    >>>>>
    >>>>>Ron said:
    >>>>>On empirical and SOM, and the MOQ being stuck on SOM in its use of the
    >>>>>word
    >>>>>empirical, is that I see you accepting, or being confused that a Mystic
    >>>>>Experience is something other than enlightenment as to how the world
    >>>>>is,
    >>>>>that does not come from some 'Out There' field or force.
    >>>>>
    >>>>>Scott:
    >>>>>I think both characterizations of mysticism given here are misleading,
    >>>>>and
    >>>>>subscribe to neither.
    >>>>>
    >>>>>Ron said:
    >>>>>The difference between enlightenment and the Christian Mystical
    >>>>>Experience
    >>>>>is that you know prior to the experience what you are going to
    >>>>>experience
    >>>>>when you are looking for the Virgin Mary. An Enlightened Mystical
    >>>>>Experience
    >>>>>is something that comes to you from what I would call 'Within.'
    >>>>>
    >>>>>Scott:
    >>>>>I would say that saying "Enlightened Mystical Experience is something
    >>>>>that
    >>>>>comes to you from what I would call 'Within.'" is just as misleading as
    >>>>>saying it comes from 'without'. In both cases there is a SOM
    >>>>>presupposition:
    >>>>>that something gets experienced, for example, knowledge of "how the
    >>>>>world
    >>>>>is".
    >>>>>
    >>>>>I also question your characterization of "Christian Mystical
    >>>>>Experience" as
    >>>>>if it were all visions. Eckhart, the author of the Cloud of Unknowing,
    >>>>>and
    >>>>>the contemporary mystic Bernadette Roberts are all counter-examples.
    >>>>>And of
    >>>>>course, visions occur in all other traditions as well.
    >>>>>
    >>>>>Ron said:
    >>>>>Thinking of Quantum Soup brings me to some thoughts about 'Emprical
    >>>>>Data.'
    >>>>>It seems to me that in most fields, the use of the term 'Empirical
    >>>>>Data' is
    >>>>>more of an insult thrown toward the Empiricists, or those who depend
    >>>>>too
    >>>>>much on what is considered emprical data.
    >>>>>
    >>>>>Scott:
    >>>>>I'm not at all clear on who you think is using 'Empirical Data' as an
    >>>>>insult. Could you give an example?
    >>>>>
    >>>>>- Scott
    >>>>>
    >>>>>
    >>>>>
    >>>>>MOQ.ORG - http://www.moq.org
    >>>>>Mail Archives:
    >>>>>Aug '98 - Oct '02 - http://alt.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/
    >>>>>Nov '02 Onward -
    >>>>>http://www.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/summary.html
    >>>>>MD Queries - horse@darkstar.uk.net
    >>>>>
    >>>>>To unsubscribe from moq_discuss follow the instructions at:
    >>>>>http://www.moq.org/md/subscribe.html
    >>>>>
    >>>>
    >>>>_________________________________________________________________
    >>>>Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's
    >>>>FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>>MOQ.ORG - http://www.moq.org
    >>>>Mail Archives:
    >>>>Aug '98 - Oct '02 - http://alt.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/
    >>>>Nov '02 Onward -
    >>>>http://www.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/summary.html
    >>>>MD Queries - horse@darkstar.uk.net
    >>>>
    >>>>To unsubscribe from moq_discuss follow the instructions at:
    >>>>http://www.moq.org/md/subscribe.html
    >>>>
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>MOQ.ORG - http://www.moq.org
    >>>Mail Archives:
    >>>Aug '98 - Oct '02 - http://alt.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/
    >>>Nov '02 Onward -
    >>>http://www.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/summary.html
    >>>MD Queries - horse@darkstar.uk.net
    >>>
    >>>To unsubscribe from moq_discuss follow the instructions at:
    >>>http://www.moq.org/md/subscribe.html
    >>>
    >>
    >>_________________________________________________________________
    >>Is your PC infected? Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfeeŽ
    >>Security. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>MOQ.ORG - http://www.moq.org
    >>Mail Archives:
    >>Aug '98 - Oct '02 - http://alt.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/
    >>Nov '02 Onward -
    >>http://www.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/summary.html
    >>MD Queries - horse@darkstar.uk.net
    >>
    >>To unsubscribe from moq_discuss follow the instructions at:
    >>http://www.moq.org/md/subscribe.html
    >>
    >
    >
    >
    >MOQ.ORG - http://www.moq.org
    >Mail Archives:
    >Aug '98 - Oct '02 - http://alt.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/
    >Nov '02 Onward - http://www.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/summary.html
    >MD Queries - horse@darkstar.uk.net
    >
    >To unsubscribe from moq_discuss follow the instructions at:
    >http://www.moq.org/md/subscribe.html
    >

    _________________________________________________________________
    Is your PC infected? Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfeeŽ
    Security. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963

    MOQ.ORG - http://www.moq.org
    Mail Archives:
    Aug '98 - Oct '02 - http://alt.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/
    Nov '02 Onward - http://www.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/summary.html
    MD Queries - horse@darkstar.uk.net

    To unsubscribe from moq_discuss follow the instructions at:
    http://www.moq.org/md/subscribe.html

    This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.5 : Tue Feb 22 2005 - 00:06:53 GMT