Re: MD severe tensions

From: ian glendinning (psybertron@gmail.com)
Date: Tue Mar 15 2005 - 01:33:29 GMT

  • Next message: Dan Glover: "RE: MD Whither "direct," "pure," and "immediate"?"

    Interestingly, I don't think it's all baloney.

    MoQ is anti-theist OK
    (pan-theist maybe, where the "god" involved is Quality)

    However Sam says something I completely identify with ...
    Quote
    I think that in Lila Pirsig (wrongly) reversed his decision in ZMM and
    decided to climb up the mountain of metaphysics.
    Unquote.

    But then I just don't believe in Metaphysics.

    Ian

    On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 18:45:51 -0500, MarshaV <marshalz@charter.net> wrote:
    >
    > Hi Sam,
    >
    > I think your statements are full of baloney.
    >
    > I don't think you will ever accept the Metaphysics of Quality, because to
    > do so would negate you chosen vocation. You are a interpreter of what you
    > believe to be God's word, and the Christian tradition, a theist
    > religion. It's your persona, 24/7. MOQ is anti-theist.
    >
    > But keep it up. I've learned much from the replies you get.
    >
    > Marsha
    >
    >
    > At 07:14 PM 3/14/2005 +0000, you wrote:
    > >Hi Marsha,
    > >
    > >Splitting this off from the other thread, as I want to try and keep that
    > >to the question of pure experience. You asked "How could one approach
    > >addressing your "severe tension" without a clear explanation of what you
    > >mean by "discovered or been taught". What are you comparing?"
    > >
    > >My long term interlocutors (like DMB, Wim and Matt) have, I think, a
    > >pretty good idea of where I'm coming from. But it's probably not a bad
    > >thing to try and summarise my view.
    > >
    > >I'd begin by saying that I think Pirsig is great, he's very lucid and
    > >stimulating to read, and I always feel refreshed whenever I return to what
    > >he has written (when I've had too much MD that is). I think ZMM is a work
    > >of genius; Lila I'm not so convinced by. In other words, I think that in
    > >Lila Pirsig reversed his decision in ZMM and decided to climb up the
    > >mountain of metaphysics. So you could say that what I have problems with
    > >is the 'metaphysics' part of the MoQ, and not the Quality part. So I think
    > >the language of Quality, SQ and DQ is tremendously fertile, and, with one
    > >more or less significant modification (my 'eudaimonic' proposal), I am
    > >quite comfortable with the different levels and how they inter-relate.
    > >
    > >The severe tensions are really reducible to two.
    > >Firstly, I think the way that DQ is described within the system of the MoQ
    > >has great difficulties. I think Pirsig has retained influences from the
    > >empirical tradition that are no longer sustainable. I think that 'pure
    > >experience' doesn't do what he wants it to do, and that it is in many ways
    > >a confused notion in and of itself. The way out of this tension seems to
    > >me to be something along the lines of Scott's 'contradictory identity'
    > >which doesn't privilege DQ over SQ, and abandoning the language of
    > >empiricism that Pirsig has retained.
    > >Secondly, I think the MoQ is a metaphysical structure that pre-dates
    > >Wittgenstein. I don't think it's possible to do metaphysics in quite the
    > >same way once Wittgenstein has been taken on board; it's 'status' is
    > >different. This is what I'm wanting to pursue with Anthony. In other
    > >words, I think that - because, so far as I know, he's never read any
    > >Wittgenstein - Pirsig is still employing some residual Cartesian
    > >assumptions about 'philosophical psychology'. I think that the MoQ can
    > >survive the removal of these assumptions, I just think that the way the
    > >levels are understood will be modified (the social level will not be
    > >'subjective' in any sense, for example).
    > >
    > >I'm happy to further unpack these if you like.
    > >
    > >Sam
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >MOQ.ORG - http://www.moq.org
    > >Mail Archives:
    > >Aug '98 - Oct '02 - http://alt.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/
    > >Nov '02 Onward - http://www.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/summary.html
    > >MD Queries - horse@darkstar.uk.net
    > >
    > >To unsubscribe from moq_discuss follow the instructions at:
    > >http://www.moq.org/md/subscribe.html
    >
    > MOQ.ORG - http://www.moq.org
    > Mail Archives:
    > Aug '98 - Oct '02 - http://alt.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/
    > Nov '02 Onward - http://www.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/summary.html
    > MD Queries - horse@darkstar.uk.net
    >
    > To unsubscribe from moq_discuss follow the instructions at:
    > http://www.moq.org/md/subscribe.html
    >
    >

    MOQ.ORG - http://www.moq.org
    Mail Archives:
    Aug '98 - Oct '02 - http://alt.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/
    Nov '02 Onward - http://www.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/summary.html
    MD Queries - horse@darkstar.uk.net

    To unsubscribe from moq_discuss follow the instructions at:
    http://www.moq.org/md/subscribe.html

    This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.5 : Tue Mar 15 2005 - 01:42:12 GMT