RE: MD Whither "direct," "pure," and "immediate"?

From: David Buchanan (DBuchanan@ClassicalRadio.org)
Date: Sun Mar 20 2005 - 03:01:51 GMT

  • Next message: Matt Kundert: "RE: MD Re: Pirsig Institutionalized, part I, part II"

    Matt and threaders:

    Matt Kundert said:
    As for the idea of "pre-intellectual experience," this is the exact concept
    I would like to get rid of in Pirsig.

    dmb says:
    The Metaphysics of Quality would be just about perfect except for two little
    things; Metaphysics and Quality. If we could just get rid of them, then we'd
    really have something more Rortyish. What? A guy can't make a real point and
    be sarcastic at the same time?

    Matt continued:
    ...It seems to me that Pirsig is trying to say that our "pre-intellecual
    experience" of low Quality _happens before language_, and this
    pre-linguistic experience is closer to Quality than post-linguistic, that
    language is a mediation between us and reality. As he says in the famous
    hot stove example, "the low value comes first, then the subjective
    thoughts...." (Ch 8) Value first, thoughts, i.e. language, second.

    dmb says:
    The pre-intellectual experience isn't CLOSER to Quality. It is Quality. Hang
    on to your hat. Its important to have a clear idea of what you're trying to
    get rid of, especially if it is essential to the MOQ. (As the sarcasm
    suggests.) It seems pretty clear to me that Pirsig is talking about
    something that is best understood in terms of mysticism or non-subjective
    idealism rather than stages of sensory experience. The brain/mind identity
    thesis is still basically living with those anatomical explanations, which
    is what Pirsig is denying with the phrase "pre-intellectual experience". I
    realize that mysticism and Rorty might not mix too well, but that doesn't
    seem like a good enough reason to vandalize Pirsig in such a way that he
    becomes his SOM enemy again. I mean, you're not just tinkering around the
    edges here.

    Holding my breath for a reply,
    dmb

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