Re: MD Nihilism (Punk)

From: max demian (oikoumenist@hotmail.com)
Date: Tue Apr 05 2005 - 18:53:14 BST

  • Next message: Matt Kundert: "RE: MD Contradictions"

    Hey Ian,

    It is _Godspeed You Black Emperor!_ (Godspeed one word). I confused things
    by giving faulty initials. I think it's a great music they create. If you
    get a chance to give it a listen let, me know what you think.

    Max

    >From: ian glendinning <psybertron@gmail.com>
    >Reply-To: moq_discuss@moq.org
    >To: moq_discuss@moq.org
    >Subject: Re: MD Nihilism (Punk)
    >Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 12:52:25 +0800
    >
    >Max, wow - the agenda.
    >
    >... you reminded me of my own "main thesis" .... that "intent" is a
    >fundamental part of any model of human affairs - artistic or otherwise
    >- as well as any aesthetic or "objective" qualities of the outcomes.
    >
    >Ian.
    >
    >PS
    >G P? Y B E
    >God's Peed You Black Emperor ?
    >
    >On Apr 2, 2005 3:03 AM, max demian <oikoumenist@hotmail.com> wrote:
    > >
    > > All,
    > >
    > > For what it matters, I find myself agreeing with Ian. That said, I think
    > > there are several points about rock or punk music that need to be
    > > remembered. Rock music has an entirely different agenda than classical
    > > music. Their priorities are different and they really should be judged
    > > according to their own musical project and standards. Yet, if you want
    >to
    > > equate them, maybe it would be better to have a different system than
    >just
    > > whether they are degenerate or not. Maybe, (bringing Nietzsche back into
    >the
    > > picture) it would be better to judge according to intent. Rather than
    > > judging as to whether music is good or bad it could be more worth while
    >to
    > > ask if they're intent is noble or base. Some music is completely
    > > base—reactive and negating. Others are more noble—active and affirming.
    >Base
    > > music is a reaction to previous musics. Noble music uses past music as a
    > > spring board to launch itself into places where music hasn't gone
    >before. In
    > > this case, all genres, classical or punk, contain both. Granted, drawing
    > > such distinctions is never as clear cut as I am proposing. However,
    >instead
    > > of judging music in accordance with its 'quality' of effects, can it be
    > > judged according to its 'quantity' of affects? where quality is
    >determined
    > > by comparison to past musics and quantity is based on force and power,
    >its
    > > affective capacity. One is determined, the other determines. (It is
    >entirely
    > > possible I am saying this all wrong. I am drawing on some readings
    >Nietzsche
    > > by Gilles Deleuze. I am wondering if the same system can be of some use
    >when
    > > drawing a distinction between static and dynamic quality. I thought it
    >might
    > > be useful here.)
    > >
    > > Currently I am obsessed by the music of _Godspeed You Black Emperor!_.
    >It is
    > > hard to categorize this music which is why I bring it up. It is
    >acclaimed as
    > > 'post-modern,' 'post-rock' and 'post-punk.' It is described as
    >classically
    > > structured, layered, sophisticated, instrumental compositions. GPYBE!
    >draws
    > > strength from everything from rock to classical musics, and yet, it is
    >not a
    > > reaction against them but takes what they give and pushes music further.
    >At
    > > the same time their music points to what Ian said about Pirsig's
    >observation
    > > of 'excesses.' With music and very, very few lyrics, they hope to draw
    > > attention to, "the decay of a bloated capitalist culture, a world's
    > > spiritual crisis, a planet in precipitous decline." They hope to draw
    > > attention to the "gluttony of human-kind." They are pro-active yet don't
    > > sacrifice musical integrity. Content doesn't overshadow their musical
    >form
    > > nor vise versa. A very interesting band in regard to this thread.
    > >
    > > Peace,
    > > Max
    > >
    > > >From: ian glendinning <psybertron@gmail.com>
    > > >Reply-To: moq_discuss@moq.org
    > > >To: moq_discuss@moq.org
    > > >Subject: Re: MD Nihilism (Punk)
    > > >Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 11:52:44 +0800
    > > >
    > > >Platt, Poot,
    > > >
    > > >Look, I'm repeating myself too ...
    > > >
    > > >Musical taste is a matter of taste, but its aesthetic / artistic /
    > > >biological qualities can all be anlaysed if we wish ...
    > > >
    > > >We seem to have lost the thread in here concerning the biological /
    > > >sexual "beat" of (some) rock, being the degenerate thing referred to.
    > > >That was an aspect I was prepared to analyse and debate. At least it
    > > >starts with some grain of truth, unlike the pointless assertion that
    > > >rock per se is low quality in some sense.
    > > >
    > > >Yet again however Platt is quoted as saying
    > > >"If you think rock is artistically equivalent to the symphonic music
    > > >of Bach, Brahms and Beethoven, the chances of your agreeing with
    > > >Pirsig's idea of a declining society is slim indeed."
    > > >
    > > >I say - Platt you are a master rhetorician, but you do talk twaddle in
    > > >your naughty non-sequitors. Yes I can see artistic equivalence in all
    > > >genres of musical art - classical symphonic as well as "post-modern"
    > > >rock - some is higher quality than others. But - that has no bearing
    > > >whatesoever on the fact that I do indeed disagree with Pirsig's
    > > >apparent assertion that our morality (in general) is going to the
    > > >dogs. He was making an observation about the excesses of hippiedom at
    > > >the time, and the same could be true about the excesses of any
    > > >lifestyle movement, the excesses of logical positivism or scientific
    > > >fundamentalism, the excesses of anything in fact. (Cue another debate
    > > >on Nietzsche, again - no gain without pain etc, no omelettes without
    > > >breaking eggs, etc Creative destruction, etc.)
    > > >
    > > >Open your eyes, look up to the skies, and see ...
    > > >I see a little silhouette of a man ...
    > > >
    > > >(Now that was pretentious twaddle BTW, but harmless twaddle I think
    > > >you'll find.)
    > > >
    > > >Ian.
    > > >
    > > >
    > > >On Ap
    > > >r 1, 2005 9:10 AM, Matt poot <mattpoot@hotmail.com> wrote:
    > > > > Hi Platt,
    > > > >
    > > > > you said (that is to say, that you say) : Of course, one's
    >evaluation of
    > > >art
    > > > > is largely a matter of personal taste. To debate about it is
    >hopeless if
    > > > > your opponent doesn't implicitly
    > > > > recognize any difference in its various forms. That said, there
    >still
    > > > > remains high and low quality taste, just as there are high and low
    > > >quality
    > > > > ideas, a statement you apparently agree with your reference to
    >"artistic
    > > > > sensitivity."
    > > > >
    > > > > I reply now: I agree with you. I'll also add, that when one has a
    >well
    > > > > formed opinion, based on actual trial, rather than general
    >assumption,
    > > >this
    > > > > would be as close to accurate on the subject as you could get.
    > > > >
    > > > > later, you add: I can only surmise that this refusal to engage
    >means
    > > > > there's
    > > > > little agreement with Pirsig's premise that societal morality is
    >going
    > > > > down hill. If you think rock is artistically equivalent to the
    >symphonic
    > > > > music of Bach, Brahms and Beethoven, the chances of your agreeing
    >with
    > > > > Pirsig's idea of a declining society is slim indeed.
    > > > >
    > > > > so, I say now: If you can surmise, that all rock is generic, and not
    >as
    > > > > artistically qualitative as the fugues (and preludes) of bach,
    > > >symphonies of
    > > > > beethoven, or operas of Wagner, than I really do need to inform you,
    > > >that
    > > > > there is a much larger variation than you may have possibly selected
    >as
    > > >an
    > > > > ongoing repertoire. Do not also assume that simpler harmonic
    > > >arrangements
    > > > > equate to lower quality music. Also, it is important to factor in
    >the
    > > > > significant changes in lyrical , melodic, and rhythmic aspects of
    >the
    > > >music.
    > > > > To my knowledge, even the musical genius of mozart's music can be
    > > >compared
    > > > > to the likes of a group such as Radiohead, which has some
    >exceptionally
    > > > > complex music, that is in the "mainstream" audience.
    > > > >
    > > > > P.S. Just a little note here, I am not aware of any symphonic
    >material
    > > > > composed by J.S Bach. Unless your referring to Carl Emanuel's.
    > > > >
    > > > > I again, urge you to listen to music of the likes of: Yes, and King
    > > >Crimson
    > > > > (my fav two picks) for excellent examples of extremely talented and
    > > >gifted
    > > > > musicians, forming a music to a level of dynamics that is not found
    >the
    > > >the
    > > > > highly structured music of Bach, Beethoven, Mozart, and many other
    > > > > "classical" composers.
    > > > >
    > > > > Also, again, you may watch Pink Floyds "the wall" . although I keep
    > > > > repeating myself....
    > > > >
    > > > > If anyone wants, I'll send them copies of "The Wall (DvD) " or any
    >CD's
    > > > > which you may have an otherwise difficult time at acquiring($$$).
    > > > >
    > > > > I hope you've read this far.
    > > > >
    > > > > poot
    > > > >
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