From: ian glendinning (psybertron@gmail.com)
Date: Sat Apr 02 2005 - 05:52:25 BST
Max, wow - the agenda.
... you reminded me of my own "main thesis" .... that "intent" is a
fundamental part of any model of human affairs - artistic or otherwise
- as well as any aesthetic or "objective" qualities of the outcomes.
Ian.
PS
G P? Y B E
God's Peed You Black Emperor ?
On Apr 2, 2005 3:03 AM, max demian <oikoumenist@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> All,
>
> For what it matters, I find myself agreeing with Ian. That said, I think
> there are several points about rock or punk music that need to be
> remembered. Rock music has an entirely different agenda than classical
> music. Their priorities are different and they really should be judged
> according to their own musical project and standards. Yet, if you want to
> equate them, maybe it would be better to have a different system than just
> whether they are degenerate or not. Maybe, (bringing Nietzsche back into the
> picture) it would be better to judge according to intent. Rather than
> judging as to whether music is good or bad it could be more worth while to
> ask if they're intent is noble or base. Some music is completely
> base—reactive and negating. Others are more noble—active and affirming. Base
> music is a reaction to previous musics. Noble music uses past music as a
> spring board to launch itself into places where music hasn't gone before. In
> this case, all genres, classical or punk, contain both. Granted, drawing
> such distinctions is never as clear cut as I am proposing. However, instead
> of judging music in accordance with its 'quality' of effects, can it be
> judged according to its 'quantity' of affects? where quality is determined
> by comparison to past musics and quantity is based on force and power, its
> affective capacity. One is determined, the other determines. (It is entirely
> possible I am saying this all wrong. I am drawing on some readings Nietzsche
> by Gilles Deleuze. I am wondering if the same system can be of some use when
> drawing a distinction between static and dynamic quality. I thought it might
> be useful here.)
>
> Currently I am obsessed by the music of _Godspeed You Black Emperor!_. It is
> hard to categorize this music which is why I bring it up. It is acclaimed as
> 'post-modern,' 'post-rock' and 'post-punk.' It is described as classically
> structured, layered, sophisticated, instrumental compositions. GPYBE! draws
> strength from everything from rock to classical musics, and yet, it is not a
> reaction against them but takes what they give and pushes music further. At
> the same time their music points to what Ian said about Pirsig's observation
> of 'excesses.' With music and very, very few lyrics, they hope to draw
> attention to, "the decay of a bloated capitalist culture, a world's
> spiritual crisis, a planet in precipitous decline." They hope to draw
> attention to the "gluttony of human-kind." They are pro-active yet don't
> sacrifice musical integrity. Content doesn't overshadow their musical form
> nor vise versa. A very interesting band in regard to this thread.
>
> Peace,
> Max
>
> >From: ian glendinning <psybertron@gmail.com>
> >Reply-To: moq_discuss@moq.org
> >To: moq_discuss@moq.org
> >Subject: Re: MD Nihilism (Punk)
> >Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 11:52:44 +0800
> >
> >Platt, Poot,
> >
> >Look, I'm repeating myself too ...
> >
> >Musical taste is a matter of taste, but its aesthetic / artistic /
> >biological qualities can all be anlaysed if we wish ...
> >
> >We seem to have lost the thread in here concerning the biological /
> >sexual "beat" of (some) rock, being the degenerate thing referred to.
> >That was an aspect I was prepared to analyse and debate. At least it
> >starts with some grain of truth, unlike the pointless assertion that
> >rock per se is low quality in some sense.
> >
> >Yet again however Platt is quoted as saying
> >"If you think rock is artistically equivalent to the symphonic music
> >of Bach, Brahms and Beethoven, the chances of your agreeing with
> >Pirsig's idea of a declining society is slim indeed."
> >
> >I say - Platt you are a master rhetorician, but you do talk twaddle in
> >your naughty non-sequitors. Yes I can see artistic equivalence in all
> >genres of musical art - classical symphonic as well as "post-modern"
> >rock - some is higher quality than others. But - that has no bearing
> >whatesoever on the fact that I do indeed disagree with Pirsig's
> >apparent assertion that our morality (in general) is going to the
> >dogs. He was making an observation about the excesses of hippiedom at
> >the time, and the same could be true about the excesses of any
> >lifestyle movement, the excesses of logical positivism or scientific
> >fundamentalism, the excesses of anything in fact. (Cue another debate
> >on Nietzsche, again - no gain without pain etc, no omelettes without
> >breaking eggs, etc Creative destruction, etc.)
> >
> >Open your eyes, look up to the skies, and see ...
> >I see a little silhouette of a man ...
> >
> >(Now that was pretentious twaddle BTW, but harmless twaddle I think
> >you'll find.)
> >
> >Ian.
> >
> >
> >On Ap
> >r 1, 2005 9:10 AM, Matt poot <mattpoot@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > Hi Platt,
> > >
> > > you said (that is to say, that you say) : Of course, one's evaluation of
> >art
> > > is largely a matter of personal taste. To debate about it is hopeless if
> > > your opponent doesn't implicitly
> > > recognize any difference in its various forms. That said, there still
> > > remains high and low quality taste, just as there are high and low
> >quality
> > > ideas, a statement you apparently agree with your reference to "artistic
> > > sensitivity."
> > >
> > > I reply now: I agree with you. I'll also add, that when one has a well
> > > formed opinion, based on actual trial, rather than general assumption,
> >this
> > > would be as close to accurate on the subject as you could get.
> > >
> > > later, you add: I can only surmise that this refusal to engage means
> > > there's
> > > little agreement with Pirsig's premise that societal morality is going
> > > down hill. If you think rock is artistically equivalent to the symphonic
> > > music of Bach, Brahms and Beethoven, the chances of your agreeing with
> > > Pirsig's idea of a declining society is slim indeed.
> > >
> > > so, I say now: If you can surmise, that all rock is generic, and not as
> > > artistically qualitative as the fugues (and preludes) of bach,
> >symphonies of
> > > beethoven, or operas of Wagner, than I really do need to inform you,
> >that
> > > there is a much larger variation than you may have possibly selected as
> >an
> > > ongoing repertoire. Do not also assume that simpler harmonic
> >arrangements
> > > equate to lower quality music. Also, it is important to factor in the
> > > significant changes in lyrical , melodic, and rhythmic aspects of the
> >music.
> > > To my knowledge, even the musical genius of mozart's music can be
> >compared
> > > to the likes of a group such as Radiohead, which has some exceptionally
> > > complex music, that is in the "mainstream" audience.
> > >
> > > P.S. Just a little note here, I am not aware of any symphonic material
> > > composed by J.S Bach. Unless your referring to Carl Emanuel's.
> > >
> > > I again, urge you to listen to music of the likes of: Yes, and King
> >Crimson
> > > (my fav two picks) for excellent examples of extremely talented and
> >gifted
> > > musicians, forming a music to a level of dynamics that is not found the
> >the
> > > highly structured music of Bach, Beethoven, Mozart, and many other
> > > "classical" composers.
> > >
> > > Also, again, you may watch Pink Floyds "the wall" . although I keep
> > > repeating myself....
> > >
> > > If anyone wants, I'll send them copies of "The Wall (DvD) " or any CD's
> > > which you may have an otherwise difficult time at acquiring($$$).
> > >
> > > I hope you've read this far.
> > >
> > > poot
> > >
> > > MOQ.ORG - http://www.moq.org
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