Re: MD Static and dynamic aspects of mysticism and religious experience

From: Sam Norton (elizaphanian@kohath.wanadoo.co.uk)
Date: Fri Apr 08 2005 - 08:51:47 BST

  • Next message: MarshaV: "Re: MD Static and dynamic aspects of mysticism and religious experience"

    Hi Wim,

    > I don't prefer DQ over sq in general. I prefer DQ over sq in religion.

    Which is the subject matter of our conversation. Does that qualifier really
    have to be added in to every sentence?

    > Our society benefits from social patterns of value (static quality),
    > because
    > they provide social stability.
    > Our society benefits from intellectual patterns of value (static quality),
    > because they provide social dynamism and evolutionary progress.
    > To the extent that religion consists of social and intellectual patterns
    > of
    > value (static quality), society can benefit from religion, provided that
    > there is no better culture than religious culture available to provide
    > society with social stability, social dynamism and evolutionary progress.

    Ok, but I wouldn't restrict the contribution that religion might make to
    social improvements. I think a religious attitude enhances the intellect as
    well (only the holy can see truly).

    > Our grasp of reality benefits from intellectual patterns of value (static
    > quality), because they provide intellectual stability.
    > Our grasp of reality benefits from Dynamic Quality, because it provides
    > intellectual dyanamism and evolutionary progress.
    > To the extent that religion consists of intellectual patters of value
    > (static quality), our grasp of reality can benefit from religion, provided
    > that there is no better (intellectual) culture available to provide our
    > grasp of reality with intellectual dyanamism and evolutionary progress.

    OK.

    > I experience a secular culture as better than a religious culture to
    > provide
    > society with social stability, social dynamism and evolutionary progress.
    > I experience a scientific culture as better than a religious culture to
    > provide my grasp of reality with intellectual dynamism and evolutionary
    > progress.
    > I need and seek religion to reach beyond all patterns of value.

    I'm not sure how you yoke these things together. But I can't quibble with an
    expression of preference.

    >> I think our present emphasis on DQ in religion involves an exaltation of
    >> choice, conditioned by the wider structures of late capitalism, and as
    > such
    >> a religion which pursues DQ in the way you described is, I feel, rapidly
    >> suborned by those same economic structures.
    >
    > You're falling again in your trap of (implicitly) supposing a subject
    > choosing between (objective) DQ and sq. DQ versus sq is not choice versus
    > static forms, but voluntary versus involuntary behaviour.

    Please explain the difference between voluntary behaviour and the behaviour
    of choice. If I do indeed fall into a trap it's not clear how you avoid
    joining me there.

    <snip a bit which depends on your answer to my above question>

    >> I think the prophetic role at the moment is actually to be found most in
    >> those who are rooted in the static forms, because it is those static
    >> forms
    >> that enable them to withstand the flood of DQ (and degeneracy) washing
    >> away everything else.
    >
    > You're twisting the meaning of words here. Prophets challenge static forms
    > (including intellectual exaltation of choice). DQ is creation of new dq
    > and
    > not degeneration to lower quality old dq.

    Disagree with your definition of what a prophet does. I see that it follows
    logically from your understanding of DQ, and your defining a prophet as one
    who pursues that notion of DQ, but that doesn't fit in with the Biblical
    understanding of a prophet, at least so far as I understand them. One
    example - for hundreds of years the prophets consistently criticise the
    society of Israel for ignoring the poor. In what way is that consistent
    teaching DQ?

    > If you are not shown that people experience holiness, you won't seek that
    > experience yourself. Sure.
    <snip> Testimonies to
    > present-day experiences of holiness are better suited to stimulate people
    > to
    > seek and find divine presence and guidance, however.

    Hmm. There speaks the authentic voice of the Quaker I guess. I think that
    presumes a large amount of shared vocabulary already.

    Cheers
    Sam

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