From: ian glendinning (psybertron@gmail.com)
Date: Wed Apr 20 2005 - 16:56:06 BST
Ham, I struggle with this one, but feel I owe you a response ...
Incidentally, the "Creationism in a Tuxedo" quote I blogged about back
in early February too - we've all been reading the same sources.
http://www.psybertron.org/2005/02/creationism-in-tuxedo.html
I too believe in a concept of "essence", ontologically, but given the
rest of the debate going on it's highly unlikely we mean the same
thing.
A couple of your phrases beg questions
"the refusual to accept a primary source"
"word game that aims at categorizing everything while circumventing
the metaphysical source"
I don't believe in a metaphysical primary source, so I can't see where
to take this, not in this thread anyway.
Sorry,
Ian
On 4/20/05, hampday@earthlink.net <hampday@earthlink.net> wrote:
> Hi Ian --
>
> > It's just a matter of linguistics - I think the Pirsigian "quality" we
> > are talking about is just another name for the primary
> > "pre-intellectual" experience you are also talking about.
> > The mystery is about the scale of "pre" - how far back can it be pushed.
>
> Thanks for your gesture of understanding.
>
> As much as I would like to, for the sake of general conciliation, I can't
> accept your conclusion that "it's just a matter of linguistics". And it's
> not a simply disagreement about what is and is not "empirical". It's a
> matter that has to do with the refusual to accept a primary source.
>
> What is "pre-intellectual" to experience -- and Quality and Value -- is the
> Absolute Essence which transcends these existential derivatives but cannot
> logically be identified with them. Any attempt to do so takes the form of a
> word game that aims at categorizing everything while circumventing the
> metaphysical source. My contention is that Essence is immutable.
>
> Even DMB is unable to deny the logic of a primary cause:
>
> > I can almost sympathize and respect the idea of intelligent design.
> > Almost, but not quite. I think that its really just creationism in a
> tuxedo.
>
> That cute phrase "creationism in a tuxedo", incidentally, was invented by
> one of the major ID detractors on the Council for Science Education, and it
> was quoted on my Values page on this topic several weeks ago. So, at least
> DMB may be visiting my website!
>
> Since you've given me the opportunity, and FWIW, I've added the following
> paragraph to my thesis which I'm hoping will further codify my theory of
> Essence.
>
> "The cardinal principle of Essentialism is that Absolute Essence is
> immutable; that is, there is a 'clean break' between the unity of Essence
> and the differentiated world of existence. The significance of this
> principle is that the 'specificity' of existential sensibilia, including
> qualitative attributes like Value, Goodness and Beauty, as well as the
> 'dynamic' or functional constructs by which created entities are
> objectivized-such as Nothingness, Beingness, Difference, Identity,
> Rationality, Numerality, Materiality, Consciousness, Humanity, Morality,
> Evolution, and Process-are not identifiable with the uncreated source. All
> such intellectualized precepts are specific to finite experience and,
> therefore, not directly transferable to Absolute Essence. Thus, any
> philosophy that is founded on an existential attribute or property as
> opposed to a primary, undifferentiated source cannot logically claim
> metaphysical transcendency."
>
> I appreciate your efforts to "harmonize" my differences with the MoQ, Ian,
> but apparently we see things differently.
>
> Best regards,
> Ham
>
>
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