From: Arlo J. Bensinger (ajb102@psu.edu)
Date: Sun Apr 24 2005 - 04:54:41 BST
Platt,
[Platt says]
> Xenophobia undoubtedly plays a role in power politics, but I would argue
> that totalitarian governments such as those spawned under the name of
> communism gain and maintain their power through terrorism -- the knock on the
door in the middle of the night and the disappearance of dissidents
> to the gulag or the grave.
[Arlo replies]
Which is little different from the tactics employed by religious power
structures over the past two thousand years. See the actions of the papacy over
this time if you think otherwise.
[Platt...]
> The Communist Manifesto ends with this famous appeal: "The communists
> disdain to conceal their views and aims. They openly declare that their
> ends can only be attained by forcible overthrow of all existing social
> conditions. Let the ruling classes tremble at a communist revolution."
> Followers of Marx have taken him at his word.
[Arlo...]
Well, Platt, Marx did advocate revolution against "ruling class" power that was
enslaving "workers". Is that what Pol Pot or Stalin did? No, of course not. As
I asked before, where in Marx does he in any way make any statement that would
support the actions of Stalin or Pol Pot? Where does Marx advocate gulags and
death camps?
[Platt]
> The horrors inflicted by the Roman Catholic church in the Middle Ages
> were, I submit, had everything to do with religious thought at the time,
> namely, to save souls from everlasting damnation.
[Arlo]
Save souls by murdering people? Save souls by war? The rhetoric of saving the
souls of the "infidels" by killing them is pretty sad. If you think that all
the people murdered in religious conflicts, from the crusades, to the American
continents, to daily murder of dissidents, were done so "out of moral concern
for their souls" and not simply to consolidate papal (or other religious
national structures) power, I'm not quite sure what I can say.
[Platt]
> Your personal views as a secularist don't affect the broader point about
> secular communism being defeated by the Judeo-Christian West.
[Arlo]
Which is, of course, exactly not what happened. You continue to back up to this
division, yet it doesn't hold at all. The secularly driven economies of the
capitalist power structure defeated the secularly driven economies of the
totalitarian power structure.
[Platt]
> No, of course not. Clement V distorted the teachings of Jesus. But Lenin,
Castro, Mao, etc. followed the teachings of Marx.
[Arlo]
Please tell me exactly where, in Marx, their actions were supported?
"Forcible overthrow" of corrupt and abusive power structures is hardly
attributable to the brutality of these men.
But here you make me somewhat frustrated. You'll say "Clement V distorted the
teachings of Jesus", but that's exactly what your so-called communist dictators
did to the teachings of Marx. And it is exactly what you continue to do,
evidencing the fear used by capitalist power structures to prevent dialogue
that threatens the wealth fixations of this country.
[Platt]
> I freely admit bad things were done in the name of Christianity in the past.
But, I've tried to confine the debate to the 20th century as Pirsig did
regarding the battle between the social and intellectual levels. In the modern
age since World War I, the mass killings have been initiated by non-Christian
nations. I think there's a message in that as we go forward.
[Arlo]
Sure, Platt, the message is that "mass killings" can occur in the name of
religious OR secular power structures. The problem is that they both are (1)
concerned only with reifying their power, through (2) employing xenophobic
fears through language manipulation.
The brutality of the past two thousand years that occured "in the name of
religion", has been replaced (through a transference of power) to brutality
occuring "in the name of fill-in-the-blank". What history shows us, is that
power structures, then and now, are not guided by "morals".
Pirsig talked about this transference of power from static religious social
patterns to static secular social patterns. But the underlying common
denominator is power. Without moral guidance, any power structure is amoral,
concerned only with its own continuation of power, and manipulates "the people"
throw xenophobic fear, opiating rewards and deceptive language to ensure its
ongoing control.
[Arlo previously...]
> > Both spiritual and intellectual people can be (and usually are) driven by
morals. These people, whether through divine inspiration or rational
secularism, can condemn the genocides of the power structures as immoral. Marx
would have been appalled at Stalin's actions, as would Jesus of Clement V.
[Platt responded]
> The problem as Pirsig put it is that rational secularism has "no provision for
morals." To disprove Pirsig, would you care to elaborate on the morality of
Marxism? I believe Pirsig referred to what intellectuals cited as morality a
"vague, amorphous soup of sentiments." What does Marx offer?
[Arlo]
I don't think Marx alone (or anyone "alone", for that matter) can really say
much. Marx (IMO) gives us a look into the inherent injustices of capitalism.
His concern was that while the industrialists got wealthy, the worker became
enslaved. I think to understand Marx, one has to understand the historical
context in which he wrote. He saw the effects, psychological and physical, on
workers, alienated from their labor, working in attrocious situations,
producing massive wealth for the elite power class, while spending his days in
poverty and squalor. Now, obviously, we have effected some change on that,
through labor laws and other restrictions designed to protect workers (although
this is an ongoing battle). But the deeper problems addressed by Marx are not
resolved. It is my contention that the workplace problems addressed by Pirsig
in ZMM are also the same problems Marx struggles with regarding workers
alienated from their labor.
[Arlo asked]
> > Are you suggesting that democracy is not an intellectual political
> > system? ;-)
[Platt answered]
> I'm suggesting that the basis for democracy in the modern world is the
> Judeo-Christian faith, you know, "endowed by our Creator" with rights to
> life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness coming from God, not by
> permission of men such as Marx.
[Arlo responds]
Really?... I thought the basis for democracy in this country was pre-Christian
Greece and the Iroquios Nation.
If democracy is "Judeo-Christian", why do we see no evidence of it during the
two thousand years when the church controlled all power? Indeed, during the two
thousand years of "Judeo-Christian" contol, the only power structures were
monarchies supported by papal power.
[Platt]
> Yes. Utopian schemes usually depend on violating man's nature. Too bad the
millions have to be slaughtered to realize that lesson.
[Arlo]
Which says a lot about "man", eh? Um, but what lesson should we realize by the
millions who were slaughtered over the two thousand years of "church" power?
[Arlo previously]
> > The point is, that individual ownership (as one example) has been so
> > ingrained in us by corporate America, because it fuels the corporate
> > machines, that even something as remotely "communistic" as common
> > ownership of a snowblower is not possible. So I wouldn't worry about
> > Marxism anytime soon, Platt.
[Platt]
> Seems you blame corporate America for most of the world's troubles. Also I
gather you agree with Marx and that ownership of private property ought
> to be abolished. That's indeed frightening, Arlo. I'm relieved to know I
> won't have to worry about it anytime soon. :-)
[Arlo]
What?! When did I say such a thing? (Oh, yes, right, I forgot... employ fear and
deceptive language, right?)
I personally don't care if everyone owned their own snowblower. But I find it a
huge waste that could be overcome by expanding the dialogue to question typical
capitalist thinking.
Arlo
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