From: Platt Holden (pholden@sc.rr.com)
Date: Sun Apr 24 2005 - 23:53:38 BST
Arlo,
> [Platt says]
> > Xenophobia undoubtedly plays a role in power politics, but I would argue
> > that totalitarian governments such as those spawned under the name of
> > communism gain and maintain their power through terrorism -- the knock on
> > the
> door in the middle of the night and the disappearance of dissidents
> > to the gulag or the grave.
>
> [Arlo replies]
> Which is little different from the tactics employed by religious power
> structures over the past two thousand years. See the actions of the papacy
> over this time if you think otherwise.
Your 2000 years carefully avoids any mention of the past 100 years when
secular socialism played out its reign of terror. I don't blame your for
avoiding the recent past since it doesn't fit your distorted ideas of
history.
> [Platt...]
> > The Communist Manifesto ends with this famous appeal: "The communists
> > disdain to conceal their views and aims. They openly declare that their
> > ends can only be attained by forcible overthrow of all existing social
> > conditions. Let the ruling classes tremble at a communist revolution."
> > Followers of Marx have taken him at his word.
>
> [Arlo...]
> Well, Platt, Marx did advocate revolution against "ruling class" power that
> was enslaving "workers". Is that what Pol Pot or Stalin did? No, of course
> not. As I asked before, where in Marx does he in any way make any statement
> that would support the actions of Stalin or Pol Pot? Where does Marx
> advocate gulags and death camps?
What you don't see to grasp is that any system which allows some people to
exercise unbridled power over other people intrinsically carries an open
invitation to abuse by the likes of Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Castro and other
communist dictators. As a self-described admirer of Marx, I'm surprised
you never heard of the "dictatorship of the proletariat." And I'm appalled
that you seem to be supportive of a system and a philosophy that in
practice and as a matter of historical record was every bit as monstrous
as the Nazi regime.
> [Platt]
> > The horrors inflicted by the Roman Catholic church in the Middle Ages
> > were, I submit, had everything to do with religious thought at the time,
> > namely, to save souls from everlasting damnation.
>
> [Arlo]
> Save souls by murdering people? Save souls by war? The rhetoric of saving
> the souls of the "infidels" by killing them is pretty sad. If you think
> that all the people murdered in religious conflicts, from the crusades, to
> the American continents, to daily murder of dissidents, were done so "out
> of moral concern for their souls" and not simply to consolidate papal (or
> other religious national structures) power, I'm not quite sure what I can
> say.
I would say study your history. All killing on a large scale, whether by
Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot of Pope Clement V has been justified by the
killers on moral grounds.
> [Platt]
> > Your personal views as a secularist don't affect the broader point about
> > secular communism being defeated by the Judeo-Christian West.
>
> [Arlo]
> Which is, of course, exactly not what happened. You continue to back up to
> this division, yet it doesn't hold at all. The secularly driven economies
> of the capitalist power structure defeated the secularly driven economies
> of the totalitarian power structure.
The political leadership in the West which guided the resources to defeat
communism were inspired and influenced by Christian belief, as were their
followers. Without that leadership (Reagan, Thatcher, Pope John Paul II)
to challenge communist expansion and it's goal of world domination, things
would be a lot different today.
> [Platt]
> > No, of course not. Clement V distorted the teachings of Jesus. But
> > Lenin,
> Castro, Mao, etc. followed the teachings of Marx.
>
> [Arlo]
> Please tell me exactly where, in Marx, their actions were supported?
>
> "Forcible overthrow" of corrupt and abusive power structures is hardly
> attributable to the brutality of these men.
History tells a different story. You can run from the historical facts,
but you can't hide.
> But here you make me somewhat frustrated. You'll say "Clement V distorted
> the teachings of Jesus", but that's exactly what your so-called communist
> dictators did to the teachings of Marx. And it is exactly what you continue
> to do, evidencing the fear used by capitalist power structures to prevent
> dialogue that threatens the wealth fixations of this country.
Given the history of communism and its record of genocide, those who
aren't afraid of it don't understand it.
> [Platt]
> > I freely admit bad things were done in the name of Christianity in the
> > past.
> But, I've tried to confine the debate to the 20th century as Pirsig did
> regarding the battle between the social and intellectual levels. In the
> modern age since World War I, the mass killings have been initiated by
> non-Christian nations. I think there's a message in that as we go forward.
>
> [Arlo]
> Sure, Platt, the message is that "mass killings" can occur in the name of
> religious OR secular power structures. The problem is that they both are
> (1) concerned only with reifying their power, through (2) employing
> xenophobic fears through language manipulation.
>
> The brutality of the past two thousand years that occured "in the name of
> religion", has been replaced (through a transference of power) to brutality
> occuring "in the name of fill-in-the-blank". What history shows us, is that
> power structures, then and now, are not guided by "morals".
Again, I suggest you read some history.
> Pirsig talked about this transference of power from static religious social
> patterns to static secular social patterns. But the underlying common
> denominator is power. Without moral guidance, any power structure is
> amoral, concerned only with its own continuation of power, and manipulates
> "the people" throw xenophobic fear, opiating rewards and deceptive language
> to ensure its ongoing control.
Just repeating the phrases "xenophobic fear" and "deceptive language" and
"opiating rewards" doesn't advance your argument. You need examples my
friend. As for moral guidance, every power structure claims to be moral,
i.e., "in the public interest."
> [Arlo previously...]
> > > Both spiritual and intellectual people can be (and usually are) driven
> > > by
> morals. These people, whether through divine inspiration or rational
> secularism, can condemn the genocides of the power structures as immoral.
> Marx would have been appalled at Stalin's actions, as would Jesus of
> Clement V.
>
> [Platt responded]
> > The problem as Pirsig put it is that rational secularism has "no
> > provision for
> morals." To disprove Pirsig, would you care to elaborate on the morality of
> Marxism? I believe Pirsig referred to what intellectuals cited as morality
> a "vague, amorphous soup of sentiments." What does Marx offer?
>
> [Arlo]
> I don't think Marx alone (or anyone "alone", for that matter) can really
> say much. Marx (IMO) gives us a look into the inherent injustices of
> capitalism. His concern was that while the industrialists got wealthy, the
> worker became enslaved. I think to understand Marx, one has to understand
> the historical context in which he wrote. He saw the effects, psychological
> and physical, on workers, alienated from their labor, working in attrocious
> situations, producing massive wealth for the elite power class, while
> spending his days in poverty and squalor. Now, obviously, we have effected
> some change on that, through labor laws and other restrictions designed to
> protect workers (although this is an ongoing battle). But the deeper
> problems addressed by Marx are not resolved. It is my contention that the
> workplace problems addressed by Pirsig in ZMM are also the same problems
> Marx struggles with regarding workers alienated from their labor.
What I hoped for was rundown of Marxist morality, such as, ownership of
private property is evil. But I guess that's asking too much. Again, you
avoid Pirsig's idea that today's intellectuals have no provision for
morals in their metaphysics.
> [Arlo asked]
> > > Are you suggesting that democracy is not an intellectual political
> > > system? ;-)
>
> [Platt answered]
> > I'm suggesting that the basis for democracy in the modern world is the
> > Judeo-Christian faith, you know, "endowed by our Creator" with rights to
> > life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness coming from God, not by
> > permission of men such as Marx.
>
> [Arlo responds]
> Really?... I thought the basis for democracy in this country was
> pre-Christian Greece and the Iroquios Nation.
I suggest you read some history, especially the documents of the founding
fathers.
> [Arlo previously]
> > > The point is, that individual ownership (as one example) has been so
> > > ingrained in us by corporate America, because it fuels the corporate
> > > machines, that even something as remotely "communistic" as common
> > > ownership of a snowblower is not possible. So I wouldn't worry about
> > > Marxism anytime soon, Platt.
> [Platt]
> > Seems you blame corporate America for most of the world's troubles. Also
> > I
> gather you agree with Marx and that ownership of private property ought >
> to be abolished. That's indeed frightening, Arlo. I'm relieved to know I >
> won't have to worry about it anytime soon. :-)
> [Arlo]
> What?! When did I say such a thing? (Oh, yes, right, I forgot... employ
> fear and deceptive language, right?)
You find Marx admirable. He advocated abolishing private property as
essential to his plan for a better world. You objected to each neighbor
owning a snowblower (ignoring of course that without evil corporations
there would be no snowblowers to fight over). The implications are clear.
Platt
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